Weekly Discussion: Ents and Elves dispute over title of "first-born".

[Elenwe]

I prefer him in makeup...but then I'm not normal

[Beleriel]

Well, I will go along with that!   

So what you are saying is that he wouldnt have helped given the choice?  I suppose that could be right, but surely he would have wanted release from his eternal damnation?  I would have thought he would have jumped at the chance! 

[EG]

he might have got used to his life in the "caves" I mean, now theyre "dead" properly... he's got no army to command

[Beleriel]

Well yeah, but surely that is better than being stuck in some netherworld for eternity  even if you are in command.  The premis has to be, doesnt it, that he would have done anything to escape such a terrible fate? 

[Elenwe]

he did looked pretty relieved when Aragorn released him after the battle though

[Lessa]

yes there was an air of  great relief and comtentment about him wasn't there?

Lessa

[Beleriel]

Am I right, that in the book the King of the Dead doesnt actually attack them does he?  I know that in the films he is shown as being aggressive and attacks them. 

I thought that in the book although the dead 'would not suffer the living to pass' there was no personal intention.  They just kept the pass and anyone who attempted to pass through there would die. 

I know that they were being punished for not aiding Elendil in the past so, is it appropriate for them to be punished for all time for one mistake (huge though it was!   ) 

Personally, I dont think the King of the Dead was evil really.  He was just malicious and bitter because of his situation. 

[Beleriel]

well?  is that right?  (I cannot be bothered to look it up in the books).   

[EG]

No, I dont believe he does attack them in the books.  They simply walk through, and pass out the otherside, with the great host behind them.  It seems the Dead recognise Aragorn and Anduril!

  NEW QUESTION!!!
What are the implications of Aragorn's statement to his companions after the loss of Gandalf: "We must do without hope"? To what extent will hope only hinder the Company in its mission?
[/b]

[EG]

I think this question is two fold

1. Does Aragorn see Gandalf as their only hope ?
2. Why is hope not good for the Fellowship ?

I think the problem for the Fellowship at this stage, was that they all forgot about their own talents and instincts and relied instead upon the wisdom and greater leadership skills of Gandalf.  Perhaps we get back to the question, did Gandalf fall deliberately ?  In that, by leaving the Fellowship he forced, at least, Aragorn to realise his greater leadership skills!  So maybe, hope was with them.  After all Estel, the name given to Aragorn by his mother translates as hope!

2.  Was hope not good for the Fellowship ?  Maybe not.  Maybe hope meant they trusted in luck more than skill and judgement ?  That they thought by hoping everything would work out, it would.  Naiivity in its extreme.  That sort of hope does not help anyone, because it clouds the judgement, and belief in your own skills,.  But it also, means that those involved would think the task easier than it actually could be.  In fact, it was a very dangerous, life threatening task.

But, without hope... hope that it might work out.. would they have bothered to continue on   hmmmm........

[Beleriel]

It could have been that Gandalf knew that Aragorn would be more obligated to the Fellowship if he wasnt around.  It became Aragorn's duty to become the leader.  Now then, also I always thought that his referral to 'hope' was in reference to himself and his name, as some sort of hint that they shouldnt rely on him.  Which was in keeping with his character (in the film anyway) as he really didnt want the responsibility did he?  Gandalf really pushed him into it, by disappearing off the scene and leaving him to it! 

As to the second part of the question well hoping is not enough is it?  It is important to be in control of what happens and not just hope for the best.  I dont really think that Frodo and Sam had much hope towards the end.  I think they were just soldiering on in the way that Hobbits do and focussed on getting the job done!  Dont know whether they believed they could do it though.  They just had no choice.

Blimey, its such an allegory for life isnt it?  It is the only way to be in life, otherwise you lose your way and can get totally lost!!   

[EG]

perhaps Gandalf pushing Aragorn into it, was also part of Aragorn's destiny, hence as I suggested, we get back to whether Gandalf fell deliberatley

Anyway... since this question isnt getting very far, probably time for a new one!

Were the Seven and Nine Rings originally intended for Dwarves and Men?

[Taurendil]

Those rings were made with help of Annatar, who later was discovered to be Sauron, and it's his idea to make all the rings, so I think he intended to take the seven and the nine after making his own Ring of Power to enslave the bearers of those rings.

[EG]

yes he did

but did he intend them for the dwarves and Men ? do you think ?

[Taurendil]

Difficult question...   Probably he did. If not, then for whom the rings were intended? On the other hand the rings were made by the elves so possibly they intended to take them. Judging by the verse opening TLotR, the rings were intended for dwarves and men. 

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