Weekly Discussion: Ents and Elves dispute over title of "first-born".

[Athelas]

  Regarding Sauron's allocation of troops at the Black Gate: remember, these weren't  ALL of his troops. Orcs were attacking Lorien and the city of Dale around the same time. This was, after all, a World War, not just Mordor against Gondor.
  And yes, Sauron knew the size of the army at the Black Gate, but he may have been afraid that Aragorn might be wielding the Ring, which would make the army mightier than its numbers alone would predict.
  Also, the Mouth of Sauron tried to bargain Gandalf & Company into withdrawing by showing the effects of Frodo and Sam. Maybe Sauron would have preferred domination over most of Middle Earth without a fight at all!

[K8 Fairy Princess]

Hmmmm i think that i agree with lessa.

If elves could only have a few children (due to the effort, strength etc that has to go into them) they might as well have them early rather than late.

That's an interesting question actually - does the health of elves deteriorate? If it does, this may be why they have children young, as this is when they are most able to bear them.

[EG]

It also seems that they had children young and early in their marriage, so that they could use their continued wisdom and guidance to help their children through their future lives, as they developed their own skills.

[Beleriel]

Yeah, but what makes you think that elves could only have a few children though?

Perhaps elven women go into menopause early in their lives so then they are FREEEE to do with their time as they want.

I mean imagine it.... a baby making machine for years and years and years and years!  eeep  NO! 

[Lessa]

What a horrible though B!! It's bad enough for the 30+ years we have to endure it as it is. I'd hate to think it went on for 1000s of years *shudder*

Lessa

[EG]

hmmm this discussion expands more on the idea, that they ceased sexual relations, showing that the elves once "joined in body" are married... have a period of the "child years" and then move onto fulfill other callings...

For with regard to generation the power and the will are not among the Eldar distinguishable. Doubtless they would retain for many ages the power of generation, if the will and desire were not satisfied; but with the exercise of the power the desire soon ceases, and the mind turns to other things." (op. cit.: 212-3) Commonly authors interpret this to mean that elves lose interest in sex. However, if one reads carefully, one sees that this is not necessarily true - Tolkien merely states that since the production of children is a conscious decision, if elves lose the desire for such production, they will cease to have them after a certain period of time. How different is this from many human couples today? The confusion surrounding the true intent of this passage can be removed when one reads Christopher Tolkien's note on this section, which quotes version A as stating "For, whether the Eldar retain their power of generation... at all times they lose the desire and will with the exercise of that power." (op. cit.: 229) Note it is the interest and will to exercise "that power" [of generation] which wanes, not the desire for one partner for the other.

The main narrative continues to say that "The union of love is indeed to them great delight and joy, and the 'days of the children', as they call it, remain in their memory as the most merry in life; but they have many other powers of body and of mind which their nature urges them to fulfill." (op. cit.: 213) The "union of love" is most naturally identified as "sex," but the "other powers" mentioned refer to replacing not this union, but the power of generation - the production of children. Hence, while it is possible that some elf couples do lose interest in sex after their children bearing and rearing years are over (as happens in some human couples today), it is not true that canon states that elves necessarily stop having sex!

It has been argued that elves possibly only have sex to procreate. This is illogical, and indeed not supported by canon. As was stated previously it is the union of the body which marks the beginning of a marriage. If it were true that sex must equal conception then the firstborn of every elf couple would necessarily be born on their first anniversary. However, Tolkien states that children are rather "born within a short span of years after their wedding," then adds that the span is "short as the Eldar reckoned time. In mortal count there was often a long interval between the wedding and the first child-birth, and even longer between child and child."

http://www.ithilas.com/morgoth.html

[EG]

I think we need a new discussion


Was the King of the Dead.... a "baddie" or a "goodie"

[Samwise Gamgee]

I suppose you could call him both... a 'baddie' for breaking his promises, in the first place, but also a 'goodie' for helping the Fellowship in their time of need... though he did only really do it for his own sake, so he could finally lay at rest. It's quite a difficult question to answer really!
     So I would call him a 'badodie', a mixture of bad and good!

[K8 Fairy Princess]

I think he would be a bit more appealing to audiences at large if he spent a bit more time in the make-up department.

But ahhh i feel sorry for him, and all of the dead to be fair. I mean, I think that they probably had good intentions but were cowardly. I mean, if Sauron trying his best to kill me, I think my immediate reaction would be to run and hide. So does cowardliness make you a baddie?

[Beleriel]

Well, I reckon he was just a coward really.  Like others say, I tend to feel sorry for him being condemned to not rest for all eternity. 

I suppose it all came out right in the end.  After all, he helped Aragorn and co get the ships in order to arrive on time at the Pelennor fields.  Without him, they would never have made it!   

I dont think he was a baddie really..... just dead!   

[EG]

but he was a murderer and a traitor!  The King of the Men of the White Mountains, who once served Sauron.

He and his men betrayed Isildur by refusing, after promising, to fight against Sauron's armies.  Was this cowardice ?  or perhaps that they had not quite deserted their alleigance to Sauron

They killed many in their paths after they took over haunting the White Mountains.... thats not good!  They could have given free pass to those who didnt support Sauron

[Elenwe]

and he only helped Aragorn because he was bound by the curse...if he could have killed him he would! He helped Aragorn for selfish reasons, not to redeem himself, but to release himself from that curse! I would say he was a baddie

[K8 Fairy Princess]

Ahhhh but how can you resist those adorable hollowed-out eyes? They're just crying out to be loved!!!!

Anyway, something constructive....OK maybe serving sauron wasn't the best of ideas. I suppose it's a question of whether he did it because he was scared (which, while not exactly being admirable, is kinda excusable) or whether he did it because he craved power and actually wanted to a chunk of Sauron's glory.

[Elenwe]

he was rather charismatic...actually, joking apart, I did rather think that actor did a cracking job playing that character...what was his name...anybody know?

[EG]

Paul Norell

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