Weekly Discussion: Ents and Elves dispute over title of "first-born".

[EG]

I thought it would be fun if we had a weekly discussion topic.  Which would also inspire us to come up with something new to discuss each week... coz we have a deadline! lol
Index of Discussions

• "In the appendix in section B, it said that Sam also sailed to Valinor. Do you reckon he saw Frodo alive one last time?"
  
  
• what was Sauron (through the Black Numenórean known as the Mouth of Sauron) attempting to accomplish through the parley with Gandalf at the Black Gate? Sauron must have had many unanswered questions: was Aragorn really wielding the Ring when Gandalf, who was much more powerful, was also present? What was the "huge elf-warrior" doing near Shelob's Lair? If the West really did have the Ring, why were they attacking with such a puny force that Sauron could probably defeat them anyway?
  
  

• The Eldar say that in the begetting, and still more in the bearing of children, greater share and strength of their being, in mind and in body, goes forth than in the making of mortal children. For these reasons it came to pass that the Eldar brought forth few children; and also that their time of generation was in their youth or earlier life, unless strange and hard fates befell them. But at whatever age they married, their children were born within a short space of years after their wedding

  HoME
  
  Why is it that the Eldar (the elves) had children only in the first few years of their marriage    Did they abstain from physical love once they were born    Did they remain married after the children were born  Why did they only have a few children 
  
  
• Was the King of the Dead.... a "baddie" or a "goodie"
  
  
• What are the implications of Aragorn's statement to his companions after the loss of Gandalf: "We must do without hope"? To what extent will hope only hinder the Company in its mission?
  
  
• Were the Seven and Nine Rings originally intended for Dwarves and Men?
  
  

• I say to you, King of the Numenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive...But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Then she said farewell to Eldarion, and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved; and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.

  
  Two questions...
  
  1. Arwen, it seems from this passage, regrets her choice not to leave with the rest of elfkind.... Do you think
  
  2. Why could she not have been granted a pass into Valinor anyway ?  There were others, who were not elfkind, who were granted passage to Valinor, as a special exception.. I wonder why Galadriel, or Elrond, of even the Vala, didnt just give her passage to Valinor anyway
  
  
• Sauron knew of Isildur's heir all along
  
  
• Ents and Elves dispute over title of "first-born". 
  

[K8 Fairy Princess]

Good idea EG!!!

Hmmmm well if Sam had managed to stay alive until that point, there's no reason why frodo couldn't have....especially as he was living in Valinor, which you would have thought would make you live longer really.

So I guess it's just a matter of whether sam made it to Valinor really - because aren't mortals meant to be unable to get there (unless they have the grace of the valar etc) ?

[EG]

comes back to the old question tho doesnt it

Were they bodies in Valinor, or spirits

[Anarya]

It's difficult really, because I saw Valinor as a place....a distant land as such, especially given I saw maps etc. However, is Valinor actually a metaphor for heaven? If it is, then perhaps those that dwell there are spirits. However, I would disagree since Galadriel and other leading elves were born and bred in Valinor but were then expelled. Thus they could not be spirits and since elves live forever (unless they receive a heartbreaking valentines card) then surely Valinor is a place and not a heaven...thus not there are no spirits. I also assumed that Frodo, Bilbo and Sam all lived slightly longer but died in Valinor  It's difficult but that's my opinion

P.S. Sam did get to Valinor as he was a ring bearer...they were blessed as far as I can remember eeep

[Shadowfax]

1482: Death of Mistress Rose, wife of Master Samwise, on Mid-Year's Day. On September 22 Master Samwise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens, and passed over Sea, last of the Ring-bearers.
-- from Appendix B, The Return Of The King

So he was a ring bearer then....if he left in 1482, shire reckoning and frodo had left in 1421, thats nearly sixty years.  Given frodos age at the end of the war of the ring, it is possible he was alive (well, sam was...would the long life given by the ring have affected frodo at all now that it was destroyed? If the ring had been destroyed and gollum had lived, would he too have died?) 

To be honest, i always imagined that frodo would die quite soon after entering valinor, at peace.

[Anarya]

I thought Sam went! And Legolas and Gimli went as well, although Legolas was not one of the pure raced elves and Gimli was a dwarf they were given access. As far as I can remember, Legolas built a great ship in Osgiliath and him and Gimli sailed to Valinor...but Gimli was close to the end of his life. They were obviously given blessing by the Gods for their part in the defeat of Sauron....
True I think Frodo would probably be dead or dying when Sam arrived in Valinor, the magic of the place would not have kept him alive long.

[K8 Fairy Princess]

I've always thought of Valinor as a proper place, with proper people (as opposed to spirits etc).

But i also thought that you could only travel to Valinor with the grace of the valar....or some other such thing. And that's how frodo got to go, because arwen kinda swopped with him. But if that was right....how did Bilbo go? *confused*

[Anarya]

Because Frodo, Bilbo and Sam were all ring bearers  Anyone who held the ring for any amount of time were allowed access to Valinor regardless.....even Gollum could have gone! Although I think the number of elves would have put him off 

[K8 Fairy Princess]

Does it actually say that anywhere in the books? (sorry, that sounds like i'm disagreeing - i just haven't read the books in quite a while and can't remember )

[Anarya]

Hehe it does somewhere I promise! I've read all the books and really remember it saying that all ring bearers were allowed access to Valinor.

And trusted friend Encyclopedia of Ardas says: "Because of their status as Ring-bearers, they were granted the passage of the Straight Road, and each eventually went to the Blessed Realm to live out their lives."

So yeah, anyone who was a ring bearer gets instant access...god just imagine Tom Bombadil in Valinor! My idea of hell...

[K8 Fairy Princess]

God was he classed as a ring-bearer?

I s'pose he did hold it for like....a second!!! I wouldn't have thought that he's want to go to Valinor anyway, I always thought of him as part and parcel of ME.

[Anarya]

As long as you touch the ring you still are a ring bearer tis odd! Yeah I don't think he would haev gone, you're right he does belong to Middle Earth...although what on earth is he?

[Athelas]

  Well, if Gollum was right, once the Ring was destroyed it would no longer preserve and extend the lives of the Ring-bearers (he says something like, "We'll die into dusst!"). This is corroborated by the fact that Bilbo aged much faster after the Ring was destroyed and could barely stay awake during the journey from Rivendell to The Grey Havens.
  My gut feeling is that the non-elves who made it to Valinor probably lived out a normal lifespan for their race. Frodo was what, 53 when he departed Middle Earth? So if you add 61 years he would've been 114, which isn't impossible for a hobbit, but not common (remember, eleventy-one was considered a very respectable age). So, there's an outside chance that Sam and Frodo were re-united in Valinor - but only for a brief time until they died.
  As for Bombadil, he may well have been of Valinor. Could be a Maiar, like Olorin.

[Beleriel]

What interests me about all this is the fact that I didnt even KNOW about the Sam going to Valinor bit.... why?

Because the book I had was an OLDER version and it didnt even HAVE that appendix part with that in it.... which suggests to me that this came later..... MUCH later.  So much so, that I wondered if it was added by Christopher.... and.... me being me I really dont give much credit to him as I think had he NOT been JRR's son he would have just been a nobody!  CERTAINLY not a writer at least... I think he is CRAP at it!

hehe THAT should set the cat amongst the pigeons! 

[Anarya]

Have to agree that Christopher is...well yes  But the appendixes where J.R.R. Tolkien, plus several of his other books such as 'The Silmarillion ' and 'Unfinished Tales' Gives us a wider understanding of Valinor pre the expulsion of some of the elves and ME etc...
But I still think Sam and Frodo would have met, briefly perhaps but met none the less.

Call to undefined function tportal_version()