Weekly Discussion: Ents and Elves dispute over title of "first-born".

[Beleriel]

Yes I know.... the writing was JRR's but it was COMPILED by Christopher.

I dont think they met.... I dont think Sam went to Valinor at all.  Its just my opinion.   

[Anarya]

Haha...oh well, they all die in the end  Lets be cheerful about that fact....Christopher is...well anyway I have to be nice on such a family site 

[K8 Fairy Princess]

  My gut feeling is that the non-elves who made it to Valinor probably lived out a normal lifespan for their race.

I still can't help thinking that Valinor would extend their lives. I mean, it's a place of 'magic' - the livespans of the men of numenor was extended simply by the presence of elves, so how much more potent would this be if the hobbits lived with the valar, maiar and elves? Also, it's a place of rest and wisdom. I can't see the hobbits dying from being overstrained, or for lack of medical knowledge.

Christopher tolkein - hmmmm....i can stand him. If he's annoying me I can always ignore his notes, and I haven't got any of his own books.

[Anarya]

I personally think that those who are non-elves do have their lives expanded when in Valinor, due to the magical powers which dwell there. However, they would naturally die one way or another and be laid to rest in that land.

[Shadowfax]

God was he classed as a ring-bearer?

I s'pose he did hold it for like....a second!!! I wouldn't have thought that he's want to go to Valinor anyway, I always thought of him as part and parcel of ME.

to be fair to him, even though it was only for a short while he had totally accepted the task of ring bearer whilst believing frodo was dead.  Who knows, perhaps he would have succeeded where frodo couldnt,  more likely because he hadnt had the ring for as long, but the rings illusions of power did not fool him.

[Athelas]

Fairy Princess was referring to Bombadil holding the ring for about a second, not Sam. Sam's stint as a ring-bearer definitely counts, because he knew the dangers but accepted the burden, however scary the choice was. Sam's time holding the ring was only a few hours, but it was essential to the mission.

P.S. My copy of LOTR was printed in 1968, and it has all the appendices. How old is the one without appendices?

[Elenwe]

well now I've loved the books but I'm in no way an expert...everyone on here knows more than I do...but, just a thought...surely Valinor would have extended Frodo's life...or what was the point in him going in the first place? He loved the Shire so much, so if Valinor didn't hold any special healing powers, why didn't he just stay in the Shire?

[Beleriel]

Thats a good point Jacky.  I reckon going to Valinor was definately to help him with some sort of cure for his ills.  I always assumed that he wouldnt die if he went there, as wouldnt anyone who went there (does that make sense?  cant be bothered changing it!)  I suppose I always saw Valinor as the equivalent to Heaven really... I didnt think anyone ever died who went there.

Sadly Athelas I no longer have that copy, it eventually disintegrated so I am sorry, I cannot say what the date of is was. 

[EG]

Tolkien in his letters said this about the passage of the people of ME to Valinor

But the promise made to the Eldar (the High Elves – not to other varieties, they had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-earth to paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prime Dark Lord had still to be fulfilled: that they should always be able to leave Middle-earth, if they wished, and pass over Sea to the True West, by the Straight Road, and so come to Eressëa – but so pass out of time and history, never to return. The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen.
But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.
I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' – of free will, and leave the world. (In this setting the return of Arthur would be quite impossible, a vain imagining.)

Letter 154
So IF the hobbits died there... surely the elves would have eventually died too

after all they werent immortal as such, just had "longer lives than we could imagine" and "seemed" immortal

would their spirits have then entered another world

[Lessa]

The elves are tied to the fate of the world and so can't die til the world does. It's mentioned somewhere in the sil but can remember where just now.

Lessa

[EG]

the world of Middle Earth or Valinor

[Anne]

To turn the original question on its head - would Sam have gone to Valinor if he didn't think he would at least have a chance of seeing Frodo?  Because what reason would he have for going there otherwise?

[K8 Fairy Princess]

the world of Middle Earth or Valinor

All of it I would guess (it's called ea isn't it? )
Do you reckon that the spirits of the elves would then go to wherever the spirits of men go then?

And as for sam....well he was keen on the elves at the beginning of the books. But I think that that was one of the discoveries he made on the quest....that home and loved ones are more important that the glamour that the elves may supply.
So, despite his liking for elves, I doubt that he would go to Valinor if he didn't think that he would see Frodo there.

.....unless he thought that he might die in the attempt to get to Valinor. If he knew that he was dying, perhaps he thought that the best way to go would be to go while trying to find his former master (OK that made more sense in my head... )

[Athelas]

  Well, since Arda was a place of healing, and Sam was grieving his wife, and he probably thought he could get in (adumbrated as he was- what a great word!), maybe he went for more than one reason.
 Don't elves go to Mandros when they die? And no one knows what happens to the spirits/souls of the Men of ME. Maybe they just cease to exist.

[Lessa]

the world of Middle Earth or Valinor

Both

Lessa

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