Weekly Discussion: Ents and Elves dispute over title of "first-born".

[Beleriel]

its not repenting for being in love with Aragorn tho is it..

I suspect its more that she should repent for rejecting her elven heritage and everything taht goes with that.. to chose to be a mere mortal and lose all she had as an elf, which is not easily come by

I know.

It just seems that the elves were really hard on her for rejecting the elven heritage.  Says something about them I think.   

[Lessa]

I don't think the elves rejected her for decideing to cast aside her immortality. I think it was more that Elrond understood, after watching his brother go through the same thing, the despair Arwen would finally come to when her loved one died before her eyes. He also know that though she would eventually die she would not be ready to do so in a mere 122 years.

Lessa

[EG]

     Frodo turned and looked at him thoughtfully, wondering about Gandalf's second postscript. 'Why didn't you tell me that you were Gandalf's friend at once?' he asked. 'It would have saved time.'

     'Would it? Would any of you have believed me till now?' said Strider. 'I knew nothing of this letter. For all I knew I had to persuade you to trust me without proofs, if I was to help you. In any case, I did not intend to tell you all about myself at once. I had to study _you_ first, and make sure of you. The Enemy has set traps for me before now. As soon as I had made up my mind, I was ready to tell you whatever you asked. But I must admit,' he added with a queer laugh, 'that I hoped you would take to me for my own sake. A hunted man sometimes wearies of distrust and longs for friendship. But there, I believe my looks are against me.'

FOTR Chap 10

This scene takes part after Frodo has read Gandalfs letter, handed to him by Butterburr, in Bree.

Interesting thought that... The Enemy has set traps for me before now. could mean that perhaps Sauron knew of Aragorn, the heir to Isildur, long before he revealed himself in the Palantir to him

[Taurendil]

Perhaps, the Enemy didn't knew that Strider was the heir of Isildur, but knew him as a captain in the service of Denethor. Thus Aragorn might have done great harm to Sauron before the War of the Ring.

[EG]

you think Aragorn was in Denethor's service?  I never thought that... The Rangers then, always seemed to be in a league of their own.. tho I couldnt say who their leader was ... perhaps Imrahil

[Taurendil]

It's said somewhere that Aragorn (alone) was in service of Gondor and Rohan some time before the War. That isn't associated with the Rangers. And during his service he concealed his true name.

'Then Aragorn took leave lovingly of Elrond; and the next day he said farewell to his mother, and to the house of Elrond, and to Arwen, and he went out into the wild. For nearly thirty years he laboured in the cause against Sauron; and he became a friend of Gandalf the Wise, from whom he gained much wisdom. With him he made many perilous journeys, but as the years wore on he went more often alone. His ways were hard and long, and he became somewhat grim to look upon, unless he chanced to smile; and yet he seemed to Men worthy of honour, as a king that is in exile, when he did not hide his true shape. For he went in many guises, and won renown under many names. He rode in the host of the Rohirrim, and fought for the Lord of Gondor by land and by sea; and then in the hour of victory he passed out of the knowledge of Men of the West, and went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men, both evil and good, and uncovering the plots and devices of the servants of Sauron.

From the tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

[EG]

yes I can see what you mean, but it doesnt say he was in their service, just that he fought for them, the Rohirrim and Gondor.

[Sad]

I don't think that Sauron knew of Aragorn as being Isildur heir...Perhaps he knew that Aragon had been raised by Elrond and such? A human being raised by elves surely has some advantages.. Maybe Aragorn was just a pesky fly that Sauron wanted to swat...

Or perhaps it was the company that Aragorn kept, that Sauron wanted to get to? Maybe the "traps" he refers to are nothing more than him being used as a weapon to get to the elves.

I really don't think Sauron knew - Doesn't Gandalf say somewhere that they still have one weapon against the enemy that he doesnt know about - Isildurs heir? I don't know, my quoting may be completely wrong...I havent read the books all the way through since I was 7...heh. That was 10 years ago.

[Taurendil]

yes I can see what you mean, but it doesnt say he was in their service, just that he fought for them, the Rohirrim and Gondor.

Maybe you are right, however I think that doesn't change the thing. As it's told he ' laboured in the cause against Sauron' and presumably was successful , so I believe that's the reason why Sauron hunted him

I wonder what traps could Sauron set against him in Eriador, since it was protected 

[Lessa]

Aragorn was in the service of Ecthelion II when Denethor was a young man. He was using the name Thorngil between the years III 2957 and III 2980. During this period he also served Thengel and as I remember Theoden remembers Aragorn from that time.

Denethor was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore. Indeed he was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to the strnager in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father. At the time many thought that Thorongil had departed before his rival became his master; though indeed Thorongil had himself never vied with Denethor, nor held himself higher than the servant of his father. And in one matter only were thier counsels to the Steward at variance: Thorongil often warned Echthleion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf; and after the days of Ecthelion there was less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Tirith. Therefore later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he abd Mithrandir designed to supplant him.

Lessa

[Anne]

I wonder if Aragorn merely meant enemies plural.  I know that he refers "the Enemy" but it might be in the same way as someone could say "The Dwarf likes mithril" or "The Hobbit can eat  an entire field of mushrooms in one go" - a generalisation of all his enemies rather than meaning Sauron?

[Lessa]

perhaps it does mean Sauron and all his minions but I don't think it means other enemies he might have.

Lessa

[Taurendil]

Anyone reading the LotR now? Maybe some idea of a new subject?

[EG]

What if..............  Ents and Elves dispute over title of "first-born". 

Do you think that would have changed the dynamics of Middle Earth, in that the Ents may have been more responsible for the fate of the people of Middle Earth, and deciding how to deal with the One Ring

[Taurendil]

The Ents aren't children of Eru. And such title cannot be applied to them. Originally they were created by the Vala Kementari to look after the nature and not the fates of Middle-earth.

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