Weekly Discussion: Ents and Elves dispute over title of "first-born".

[EG]

youre right CC

they did just make 16.. which when Sauron divided them up in temper at the Elves forging the Three in secret were delved out that way

there is also a big debate as to whether the one that was given to Durin, was one that was forged with the aid of Sauron, or one that was also forged in secret... since, possibly, it is another one that Sauron didnt retrieve or control

[EG]

Slight deviation here.. but talking about The Three...  Do you suppose that Cirdan used Narya to create Mithlond, The Grey Havens.



Both Galadriel and Elrond used their Rings to create the Havens of Imladris and Lorien, making them both "magical" places of beauty, delaying the onset of time.... and so perhaps Cirdan used Narya for the same purpose.



If that is the case then, when he passed Narya onto Gandalf, was the integrity of Mithlond waned at all ?  i.e the "haven" became not such a haven

[Taurendil]

And what is exactly the onset of time? I mean what changes could that bring to Rivendell and Lorien? I think even without the ring Mithlond remained place of beauty because of the calaquendi living there.

[EG]

I say to you, King of the Numenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive...But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Then she said farewell to Eldarion, and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved; and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.

Two questions...

1. Arwen, it seems from this passage, regrets her choice not to leave with the rest of elfkind.... Do you think

2. Why could she not have been granted a pass into Valinor anyway ?  There were others, who were not elfkind, who were granted passage to Valinor, as a special exception.. I wonder why Galadriel, or Elrond, of even the Vala, didnt just give her passage to Valinor anyway

[Taurendil]

1. I think that she regretted that Aragorn had abandoned the world and thus her life was filled with grief and sorrow.

2. This matter is always nagging at me. If Aragorn had offered her to sail to Valinor before he died then it was possible to do that, but I don't understand why she said that there was no ship that could bear her to the undying Lands. Perhaps wedding a mortal automatically forbids an elf to pass to Valinor. It seems to be impossible or Elrond would have stayed in ME and waited for Arwen.

By the way, where did they go to Valinor or to Eressea?     

[Lessa]

she hadn't realised just what it meant to live a finite life. It's one thing to renounce your immortality but another to actually understand it in your heart. She also wanted Aragorn to stay with her for longer than he was able to
It wasn't that she married a mortal but that the minute Arwen renounced her immortality there was no ship to take her into Valinor. Only mortals with special dispensation from the Valar were able to sail to the Undying lands. Those that were granted a pass so to speak had done exception things whereas Arwen had not.

Lessa

 

[Taurendil]

But why then Aragorn told her to sail away? Did he not know that that was impossible?

[Cosmin-Coral]

I think the problem there, Taurendil, lies in using the film as reference - it works well within the context of the film but I don't recall any such quote from the book. In fact they had been pladged to marry for far longer.
Actually, at what point was THE choice made, when did she become "fully human"? I'd guess at her marriage if there are no other quotes to support another point of view.

[Taurendil]

There's the reference:
Aragorn: ' "I speak no comfort to you, for there is no comfort for such pain within the circles of the world. The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never more than memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men."
Arwen "Nay, dear lord," she said, "that choice is long over. There is now no snip that would bear the hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence. But I say to you, King of the Númenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." (Tale of Aragorn and Arwen)

So Aragorn accepts the possibility for her to sail away.

[Cosmin-Coral]

Nicely found.
S0 *searches memory* that's largely quoted by Elrond in the film? - while she does still have a choice.

[Taurendil]

I guess she refused the gift of immortality just like Aragorn refused gift of Men. I agree with Lessa that she wasn't allowed to Valinor(or Eressea). I suppose that Aragorn just did not realise this. As for the granted passage, I'm inclined to think that even the Wise couldn't make the Valar accept it. It's the only explanation I can make out...

[Beleriel]

The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never more than memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men."

This quote here though does imply she is being punished.  I mean, it seems very harsh treatment for her to be punished so virulently for wanting to be with Aragorn.  What on earth was her crime that she should be treated so harshly? 

It all seems a bit harsh to me. 

[Taurendil]

Perhaps it means that she should have regretted of their parting, not of forsaking immortality. 

[EG]

its not repenting for being in love with Aragorn tho is it..

I suspect its more that she should repent for rejecting her elven heritage and everything taht goes with that.. to chose to be a mere mortal and lose all she had as an elf, which is not easily come by

[Taurendil]

I think if the Valar pardoned the Exiled Noldor they could have granted her the passage, but I don't think forsaking immortality can be amended by repenting. It's just the rule not to admit mortal to the Undying Lands unless the Valar permit it.

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