Got to thinking...

[EG]

when watching the films on hols.....

how would things have been different, if Bilbo had taken the One Ring himself to Rivendell when he left the Shire?  rather than leave Frodo to do it..... ?


I wonder if he would have been hunted down too, seeing as there was 30? years difference... and then if he hadnt been, and it had been in Rivendell all that time, would Rivendell have been hunted, or would the personality of Rivendell been changed  by its presence there ?  corrupted by its evil somehow?

[Taurendil]

There wouldn't have been any hunt, cause at that time Sauron hadn't captured Gollum yet. Sauron didn't know about the hobbits at all then. I think if Bilbo had taken the Ring himself, it'd have been revealed to be the One earlier and maybe some other person would have carried it to Mordor.

As it is said in the Council of Elrond, Elrond wouldn't have taken it, nor would Gandalf. I suppose there'd have been a council, though I do not imagine to what conclusion they'd have come. When reading that chapter (I read it last night ) I think that Elrond wanted Frodo to be  a ring bearer. So without Frodo it's difficult to say what'd have happened. I doubt they would have entrusted the Ring to Bilbo, seeing as he was very old.

[EG]

so you think they would have moved it out of Rivendell before Sauron became aware?  or perhaps they might have kept it there, thinking that it could be concealed in Rivendell,. and only after Gollum had been tortured, realise that they really ought to act.

I wonder, if they did decide before Gollum was captured, whether the calling of a Council would have attracteed a lot of attention too, and Sauron would have become suspicious earlier

[Lessa]

I think Elrond would certainly have known the One Ring was in his domain. What he would have done about it then I don't know. He surely would not have wanted it to stay there but even then Bilbo was old and would not have been up to the arduous journey into Mordor. However could he have been persuaded to pass it on to someone else so they could destroy it?

[Taurendil]

so you think they would have moved it out of Rivendell before Sauron became aware?  or perhaps they might have kept it there, thinking that it could be concealed in Rivendell,. and only after Gollum had been tortured, realise that they really ought to act.

I doubt they would have kept it there, at the council that happened in Rivendell they were discussing destroying it or throwing it into the Sea. Sauron would have known, sooner or later that it was in Rivendell. Everybody knew about Bilbo going away after that party so Sauron would have guessed he was going to Rivendell.

I wonder, if they did decide before Gollum was captured, whether the calling of a Council would have attracteed a lot of attention too, and Sauron would have become suspicious earlier

How could it attract an attention? I think Sauron wouldn't have known about the council. However to complicate matters further there's Saruman, who wasn't discovered to have ill purposes at that time. I think he could have betrayed them in some way. For example if a decision was made to bring the Ring to Orodruin, he could have ambushed the company and so take the Ring for himself.

[EG]

but was Saruman corrupted at that stage, or perhaps the knowledge the Ring was within his grasp would have started things off.....

maybe also they would have had more success destroying the Ring as Sauron wasnt nearly as strong at that time..

[Lessa]

That's always possible but personally I think Saruman would have been ab;e to obtain the ring more easily as well. He was more involved with the White Council at this time and so could easily have decieved them into gining him the ring on the pretext that he was the only one equipped to destroy it.

[Athelas]

   Lessa, I disagree that Saruman could have convinced Gandalf or Elrond to entrust him with the Ring, because G and E  (and Galadriel, for that matter)  felt the Ring would corrupt them, should it come into their hands, so the same would hold true for Saruman.
  If Gandalf had shared his suspicions regarding the nature of Bilbo's ring with Saruman before Saruman reveal his treason, would Saruman have had sufficient troop strength to march on Rivendell and take The Ring by force? Hmmmm....

[Taurendil]

It seems there are too many if's, lol. I agree with Athelas, Gandalf and Elrond wouldn't have entrusted the ring to Saruman, not him alone at least.
As for destroying the Ring earlier, before Sauron got stronger, I think that's  what would have happened though the task would've been still very difficult and dangerous.

     If Gandalf had shared his suspicions regarding the nature of Bilbo's ring with Saruman before Saruman reveal his treason, would Saruman have had sufficient troop strength to march on Rivendell and take The Ring by force? Hmmmm....

That's interesting. I pesonally think Saruman's strenght wouldn't have been enough to take Rivendell. At the Council they think that Rivendell could fall if everything else was conquered. Saruman didn't conquer Helms Deep, and in Rivendell there are many defences such as the Loudwater and the elven Ring. Besides he wasn't strong at that time, I believe.

[Athelas]

  Another question - if Saruman was so schooled in Ring lore, why DIDN'T Gandalf share his suspicions regarding Bilbo's ring with him earlier? Could it be that
Saruman was never fully trusted by the Maia and wise elves? After all, Cirdan gave his elven ring to Gandalf, not Saruman.
  And, if Saruman hadn't revealed his treason to Gandalf when he did, it's very possible that Saruman would've learned about the Fellowship and waylaid them in the wilderness, obtaining the ring by force.

[Taurendil]

  Another question - if Saruman was so schooled in Ring lore, why DIDN'T Gandalf share his suspicions regarding Bilbo's ring with him earlier? Could it be that
Saruman was never fully trusted by the Maia and wise elves? After all, Cirdan gave his elven ring to Gandalf, not Saruman.
 

Gandalf explains this himself:
'Time passed with many cares, until my doubts were awakened again to sudden fear. Whence came the hobbit's ring? What, if my fear was true, should be done with it? Those things I must decide. But I spoke yet of my dread to none, knowing the peril of an untimely whisper, if it went astray. In all the long wars with the Dark Tower treason has ever been our greatest foe.'

Judging by the following Gandalf himself is not sure why he didn't tell about his doubts concerning Bilbo's ring to Saruman:
‘When did I first begin to guess?’ he mused, searching back in memory. ‘Let me see - it was in the year that the White Council drove the dark power from Mirkwood, just before the Battle of Five Armies, that Bilbo found his ring. A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared. I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was - that at least was clear from the first. Then I heard Bilbo’s strange story of how he had “won” it, and I could not believe it. When I at last got the truth out of him, I saw at once that he had been trying to put his claim to the ring beyond doubt. Much like Gollum with his “birthday present”. The lies were too much alike for my comfort. Clearly the ring had an unwholesome power that set to work on its keeper at once. That was the first real warning I had that all was not well. I told Bilbo often that such rings were better left unused; but he resented it, and soon got angry. There was little else that I could do. I could not take it from him without doing greater harm; and I had no right to do so anyway. I could only watch and wait. I might perhaps have consulted Saruman the White, but something always held me back.’

[Athelas]

  You are indeed a LOTR scholar to come up with that quote. Was it from "The Council of Elrond"? Since I haven't read the book in about a jillion years I didn't recollect it.
  So anyway, there was always something fishy about that Saruman guy!
Wonder if his alliance with Sauron went back really far - like back to Arda? Maybe Saruman was a secret compatriate of Melkor way, way back, and after Melkor got locked up, Saruman was left to pair up with Sauron in secret. They were both Maia.
 

[EG]

youre right!

when did Saruman first get corrupted by Sauron #? 

the fact that Gandalf wasnt comfortable talking to him, must have meant something...

and if he had something suspicious in his nature, how did he get to become head of the order

[Athelas]

  How did he get to be head of the order? Well, there was a secret ballot, and Saruman had promised the two blue wizards an all-expenses-paid trip to Orthanc, to include a reception with elf maidens, a jacuzzi and a wide-screen palantir if they would vote for him. They'd been out in the boonies for a long time and craved that sort of recreation, so Gandalf (who was counting on Radagast to vote for him because they were cousins) lost the election.
  Gandalf told Elrond the tale after a long night of many bowls of pipe weed and flagons of brown ale. I think it's somewhere in "Unfinished Tales".....

[EG]

ah well!  that explains a lot then!  Why the blue and brown wizards totally disappeared!!!  theyre somewhere holed up in that old black tower!!! Yes Yes, I can see it all now 

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