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: Reincarnation in Elves ???  ( 11743 )
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« : November 20, 2005, 05:42:38 AM »

Ive just been researching some information In Tolkien's Letters and come across this paragraph, Ive not seen before, that suggests that Elves can be reincarnated, if their true time is not finished... Which begs the question, why would they have "eternal" lives, if they can be "reborn" and if they are accidentally ;) killed... then really its not a problem, if they can be reborn anyway,,,  Hmmm.. perhaps this explains the "two Legolas'" :-\

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In the Elvish legends there is record of a strange case of an Elf (Míriel mother of Fëanor) that tried to die, which had disastrous results, leading to the 'Fall' of the High-elves. The Elves were not subject to disease, but they could be 'slain': that is their bodies could be destroyed, or mutilated so as to be unfit to sustain life. But this did not lead naturally to 'death': they were rehabilitated and reborn and eventually recovered memory of all their past: they remained 'identical'. But Míriel wished to abandon being, and refused rebirth
Letter 212



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« #1 : November 20, 2005, 08:45:06 AM »

 I think there's another one quotable about Finrod being reborn in Valinor after he sacrificed his life to save Beren's.

 Still that does not mean that they could have done it in the fourth age or later (if you know what I mean) ;)
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« #2 : November 20, 2005, 03:05:58 PM »

interesting thought!  Reincarnation in the Fourth Age!  There were still some elves in ME in that Age... I guess really there wasnt much point to reincarnating in Valinor! lol



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« #3 : November 20, 2005, 07:01:20 PM »

 You have Glorfindel's case as well, he dies in battle with the Balrog and then reappears in Rivendel, the explanation given is the same rebirthing thing.

 Still I don't think rebirthing during the fourth age would have been possible for elves in M.E.

 After all Arwen wouldn't have passed away, waned or whatever it was she did.

 There are interesting conceptions about this but they fit the 'How tolkien created M.E' better, as a similar thing happens to all gnomish, elven species in folklore, they wane and shrink so much they disappear.
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« #4 : November 20, 2005, 07:55:26 PM »

but how do we know that Arwen didnt recreate ?  She may well have ;)

(yup! moving this to "how did Tolkien create ME"  I agree!



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« #5 : November 20, 2005, 08:05:15 PM »

 I suppose she could have done but then we would be speculating and in that field we could get nowhere  ;D

 Remember when explaining the multi quadrant complexes? well if I speculate now I would say part of the reason why there was an exodus to Valinor would have been a waning of the species, which could well account for the total absence of any mythological species in this quadrant.

 I like the idea of there being reincarnation/rebirthing in the books especially since Tolkien was such a devout Christian and it contradicts his very own belief. (yes reincarnation/rebirth as the body of some of these elves would have been destroyed in combat with say the Balrog, or with Carcharoth)

 Did you read the preface I sent you? it's written a bit loosely when it comes to referring to the authors of the Red Book of the Westmarch, however it was done then with the consent of J.R.R Tolkien which leads me to believe in some sort of remorse from his part... it's not like the books needed the free publicity and enhancement of its mythological narrative, however that book (published before the Silmarillion) had loads of facts about it which were later corrected and eventually C. Tolkien had it removed from the shelves and demanded to preface to be removed, so if you wanted that preface you would need one of the first editions.

 
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« #6 : November 20, 2005, 08:08:45 PM »

I have read the preface you sent. and it makes lots of sense.. and gives me lots of hope, that someone else will achieve what Tolkien did.

I do wonder now tho, whether, if the Third Age elves, either did not reincarnate into Middle Earth (which we cannot be sure they didnt, since there is no record, of the "last elf" leaving Middle Earth)  Perhaps they may well have reincarnated as some other being... human for example ???

(btw who was the author of that preface... Id like to read more!)



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« #7 : November 20, 2005, 09:42:28 PM »

EG
Quote
Hmmm.. perhaps this explains the "two Legolas'"
What do you mean by "two Legolas"

I amar prestar aen, han mathon ne nen, han mathon ne chae a han noston ned 'wilith.
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« #8 : November 20, 2005, 09:51:18 PM »

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Legolas of Gondolin
by Varda-(Valar)
Feb. 7, 2003, additions Nov. 23, 2004


    Legolas of the Fellowship was probably taken by JRRT from an earlier idea of a keen-eyed Legolas Greenleaf who was a guide in Book of Lost Tales 2, an elf of Gondolin.
    This character was of the House of the Tree in Gondolin.  He is not mentioned until the destruction of Gondolin in FA 511. How bad was that? It is said:


    "its ruin was the most dread of all the sacks of cities upon the face of Earth. Nor Bablon, nor Ninwi, nor the towers of Trui, nor all the many takings of Rum that is greatest among Men, saw such terror as fell that day upon Amon Gwareth in the kindred of the Gnomes; and this is esteemed the worst work that Melko has yet thought of in the world."
    -Book of Lost Tales 2 "Fall of Gondolin"


    Legolas was night-sighted and knew all the plain by light or dark. He and the tiny remnant of eight-hundred survivors whom he led from the ruin of Gondolin were swift and hardy. The refugees were mostly men, as the women had been hidden in supposedly safe places in Gondolin, trapping them unintentionally. These women were exceptionally beautiful "as fair as the sun and as lovely as the moon and brighter than the stars" according to BoLT 2 "Fall of Gondolin". This suggests their menfolk would also have been of such a nature. Earendil was among them, born FA 504, so he was then seven years old.
     Legolas' "eyes were like cats' for the dark, yet could they see further." He traveled ahead of the group with Galdor's spearmen to help them see ahead. Glorfindel helped in the equally dangerous task of bringing up the rear.
    The refugees were ambushed in the rocks of the mountains where they could not see and Glorfindel and a Balrog killed each other. Then the refugees were aided by the King of Eagles, Thorondor, and his people. Afterwards many of the survivors took the symbol of the Eagle in sign of their joy, including Earendil's mother Idril (daughter of Turgon), although Earendel (later written "Earendil") kept the Swan-wing of his father Tuor. This suggests Legolas of that time probably changed from the Swan-wing to the Eagle symbol.
    With the aid of Ulmo's visions through Voronwe and Tuor, they found their way through confusing magics into the Land of Willows where the slightly over five-hundred survivors of the trip recuperated. There the sea-longing came on Tuor and Earendil.
    Then Ulmo led them, using Tuor, along the River Sirion to the Sea on the coasts of Avernien. They joined with the remnants of Doriath who were led by Elwing, and among the colony sometimes came Cirdan's mariners from Balar.
    There at the mouths of River Sirion they settled, taking up the name of the People of the Flower, the Lothlim, because the old name of Gondothlim was a name too sore to their hearts. There Earendil grew, nurtured to become the savior of elves and men, the prophesied return link to the Valar from whom the Noldorian exiles were estranged. Legolas would have known Earendil. According to the Silmarillion, the colony learned from Cirdan's mariners to build ships, and they took to the waves.
    After the terrible destruction of the colony at the mouths of Sirion by the sons of Feanor, the few survivors joined themselves to Gil-galad (High King of the Noldor after Turgon's death in Gondolin). Gil-galad and Cirdan came too late to save the Elves of Sirion, but took them back to Balar (Silmarillion) or Tol Eressea (BoLT). Legolas was there called Laiqalasse.

    For Legolas of Gondolin to be the same person as Legolas of the Fellowship, he would have had to die and be reborn without memory, although perhaps retaining some skills from his first life.
    One might have been the making of the ships that could go to Valinor, as he was probably one of those helping Cirdan's people build ships on Tol Eressea. We know that in Return of the King, he built such a ship with which he and Gimli sailed to Valinor.
    Another might have been his exceptional eyesight and abilities as a guide in the wild.
    Since his contemporary, Glorfindel, was reborn into Middle-earth, it is within the realm of possibility that Legolas was purposely sent back without memory baggage to be a better help to the Fellowship.
    The Legolas name is of very unusual construction and was not used that we know of except on these two occasions.
    Even though no mention is made of any such re-birth, it is possible. It is also possible that JRRT lifted the character from these notes that he did not expect to publish, which could be why any mention of Legolas in Gondolin in the Silmarillion was dropped. And yet again, Legolas may have been dropped from the Silmarillion in the same manner a huge host of other details were dropped, to fit into one book the notes that became the twelve volumes of Histories of Middle-earth and the Unfinished Tales.

http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/articles/l/Legolas/LegolasGondolin.htm



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« #9 : November 20, 2005, 10:45:21 PM »

I have read the preface you sent. and it makes lots of sense.. and gives me lots of hope, that someone else will achieve what Tolkien did.

I do wonder now tho, whether, if the Third Age elves, either did not reincarnate into Middle Earth (which we cannot be sure they didnt, since there is no record, of the "last elf" leaving Middle Earth)  Perhaps they may well have reincarnated as some other being... human for example ???

(btw who was the author of that preface... Id like to read more!)

 J.E.A Tyler is the author.

 No indeed reincarnating as something else I believe as feasible if they had mixed themselves with humans (actual hybridization). *is amused by the prospect of elves reincarnating in dwarven bodies, or hobbit bodies or human bodies too* I can't see why it wasn't possible. After all you do get crossing from different species in our present world.
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« #10 : November 20, 2005, 11:31:17 PM »

JEA Tyler who wrote The Complete Tolkien Companion   ???

I imagine an elf in a dwarven body, would be very frustrated on more than one count! lol



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« #11 : November 21, 2005, 12:06:03 AM »

 Yeah the preface is the one which featured in the very first edition E.G it's not there on any other editions, so consider yourself lucky that I forwarded you a copy  :fr: :P

 Certainly, any hybrid has its cons and pros, but you have to ask what would have driven anyone to mix?  ;)
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« #12 : November 21, 2005, 12:19:16 AM »

I certainly do feel lucky!  tis truly inspiring... :D :e:



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« #13 : November 21, 2005, 03:25:55 AM »

Some interesting points from Tolkien's Letters
Quote
'Reincarnation' may be bad theology (that surely, rather than metaphysics) as applied to Humanity; and my legendarium, especially the 'Downfall of Númenor' which lies immediately behind The Lord of the Rings, is based on my view: that Men are essentially mortal and must not try to become 'immortal' in the flesh.  But I do not see how even in the Primary World any theologian or philosopher, unless very much better informed about the relation of spirit and body than I believe anyone to be, could deny the possibility of re-incarnation as a mode of existence, prescribed for certain kinds of rational incarnate creatures.
Letter 153

Quote
Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event : there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Eärendil.1 But since some have held that the rate of longevity is a biological characteristic, within limits of variation, you could not have Elves in a sense 'immortal' – not eternal, but not dying by 'old age' — and Men mortal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World – and yet sufficiently akin. I might answer that this 'biology' is only a theory, that modern 'gerontology', or whatever they call it, finds 'ageing' rather more mysterious, and less clearly inevitable in bodies of human structure. But I should actually answer: I do not care. This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all.
But as it is — though it seems to have grown out of hand, so that parts seem (to me) rather revealed through me than by me – its purpose is still largely literary (and, if you don't boggle at the term, didactic). Elves and Men are represented as biologically akin in this 'history', because Elves are certain aspects of Men and their talents and desires, incarnated in my little world. They have certain freedoms and powers we should like to have, and the beauty and peril and sorrow of the possession of these things is exhibited in them. ....
Letter 153


Quote
I have already dealt with the biological difficulty of Elf-Human marriage. It occurs of course in 'fairy-story' and folk-lore, though not all cases have the same notions behind them. But I have made it far more exceptional. I do not see that 'reincarnation' affects the resulting problems at all. But 'immortality' (in my world only within the limited longevity of the Earth) does, of course. As many fairy-stories perceive.
Letter 153

Quote
Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Lúthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Lúthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate
Letter 153

Quote
The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.
Letter 153




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« #14 : November 21, 2005, 03:28:31 AM »

and then of course... there is the "reincarnation" of Gandalf... from Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White... but that is not concerning elves ;)



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