Elrond and the River

[EG]

Anne

Back in the good old days, before the movie, it was Elrond who caused the river to flood and wash away the Black Riders, saving Frodo.  But how did Elrond do it?  Nice little damn upstream all ready to go?  Hooking up with Goldberry (or Galadriel) to harness the waters?  Quick prayer request?

[EG]

Jezz

Hmmm, I wondered how he did it.  And I also wondered when he knew when to do it!

I reckon he's got some magical power that Tolkien didn't tell us about 

[EG]

Erkenbrand

Many of the Eldar possess powers that could be considered magical.  Rivendell is known as the 'Last Homely House East of The Sea'.  Elrond used his power to defend this last Noldorin refuge in Middle-Earth, because Elrond's might "lay in wisdom not weapons" (LOTR, Book II, Chap 2).  The power in Rivendell was only used to defend itself, nothing more.

[EG]

Aule

[size=-1]The Fellowship of the Ring
Book II Chapter 1
Many Meetings

[...] "Who made the flood?" asked Frodo.

"Elrond commanded it," answered Gandalf. "The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford." [...][/size]

[size=-1]The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
No. 155
To Naomi Mitchison (draft)
An unsent portion from the draft of Letter No. 154
To Naomi Mitchison
25 September 1954

[...] I do not intend to involve myself in any debate whether 'magic' in any sense is real or really possible in the world. But I suppose that, for the purposes of the tale, some would say that there is a latent distinction such as once was called the distinction between magia and goeteia.¹ Galadriel speaks of the 'deceits of the Enemy'. Well enough, but magia could be, was, held good (per se), and goeteia bad. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use. Both sides use both, but with different motives. The supremely bad motive is (for this tale, since it is specially about it) domination of other 'free' wills. The Enemy's operations are by no means all goetic deceits, but 'magic' that produces real effects in the physical world. But his magia he uses to bulldoze both people and things, and his goeteia to terrify and subjugate. Their magia the Elves and Gandalf use (sparingly): a magia, producing real results (like fire in a wet homosexual) for specific beneficent purposes. Their goetic effects are entirely artistic and not intended to deceive: they never deceive Elves (but may deceive or bewilder unaware Men) since the difference is to them as clear as the difference to us between fiction, painting, and sculpture, and 'life'. [...][color=#99ffc]

1[/color] Greek goeteia (goes, sorcerer); the English form Goety is defined in the O.E.D. as 'witchcraft or magic performed by the invocation and employment of evil spirits; necromancy'[/size]

So, what the hell am I going on about with this?

Well, for use in support of my guess.

Elrond, though Half-elven choosing to be counted among the Elves, and not precisely an Elf, would possess the magia to produce the flood by his own inherent ability and power. This action would be, in my view, one of the instances of magia that was used "sparingly" by the "Good Guys".

Now, whether or not it was aided and abetted by Elrond tapping into Vilya, I cannot say for sure. Although I would think not, for two reasons. One, it wouldn't be necessary, and two, it would be tipping his hand that he did indeed hold the Blue Ring.

But once again, all of this is mere speculation.

[EG]

Dagger

Now, whether or not it was aided and abetted by Elrond tapping into Vilya, I cannot say for sure. Although I would think not, for two reasons. One, it wouldn't be necessary, and two, it would be tipping his hand that he did indeed hold the Blue Ring.

Interesting this was mentioned, and I only just noticed the topic now... my friend, who has never read the books but is constantly asking me questions of the movies, asked me tonight how the river rose, and how Arwen commanded it (to which I had to replied she wasn't actually supposed to be there ) and then followed this up with "oh yeah, that Elrond dude, he had the water ring didn't he?" I nearly slapped myself. It's a connection I'd never made even though I'd asked myself how he did probably a hundred times. 

[EG]

Aule

[size=-1]then followed this up with "oh yeah, that Elrond dude, he had the water ring didn't he?" I nearly slapped myself. It's a connection I'd never made even though I'd asked myself how he did probably a hundred times.  [/size]

Vilya, actually, is the Ring of Air. Nenya, the one Galadriel held, is the Ring of Water.

[EG]

Dagger

[size=-1]then followed this up with "oh yeah, that Elrond dude, he had the water ring didn't he?" I nearly slapped myself. It's a connection I'd never made even though I'd asked myself how he did probably a hundred times.  [/size]

Vilya, actually, is the Ring of Air. Nenya, the one Galadriel held, is the Ring of Water.

My bad. But then, I haven't read the books in a long time... so who held the ring of fire before it was entrusted to Gandalf? Was it Cirdan?  I'm more curious as to how Elrond commanded the river now... so you're saying, the majority of the 'flood' was illusion or a quasi-manifestation of 'magic'? (I don't mean Gandalf's finishing touches with the horses though) Something to strike fear into the horses of the Ringwraiths, so that they were cast into the river...?

The malleability of Tolkien's descriptive prose sure gets him off the questioner's hook a lot, huh? 

[EG]

Aule

[size=-1]So who held the ring of fire before it was entrusted to Gandalf? Was it Cirdan?  I'm more curious as to how Elrond commanded the river now... so you're saying, the majority of the 'flood' was illusion or a quasi-manifestation of 'magic'? (I don't mean Gandalf's finishing touches with the horses though) Something to strike fear into the horses of the Ringwraiths, so that they were cast into the river...?[/size]

No, it was legit ... an actual, physical flood. The magia was used to command the river to rise as it did.

I speculated on Vilya not for any elemental considerations, but for the enhancement of power the Ring would impart. Again, I see neither a reason nor desire for that to occur.

And yes, Cirdan held Narya before passing it to Gandalf at the Havens.

And just to be thorough ...

Celebrimbor, the creator of The Three, originally held all of them. Nenya he pased to Galadriel directly. Vilya and Narya he passed jointly to Gil-Galad, before Gil-Galad passed Vilya to Elrond, and Narya to Cirdan.

[EG]

Dagger

I see... thanks for clearing that up.  (P.S. I wasn't being lazy, I've left my actual Tolkien book set over at my college room gathering dust for the moment... really have to get my hands on a decent Tolkien reference book at some point, too. I'm quite disgusted with my ignorance of ring-lore and Tolkien trivia in general.  :-[)

I see your point, speculating that the ring Elrond held might have augmented his abilities to call the flood is a possibility, since they held 'power' (although I'm a little fuzzy on the unique 'abilities' or power they actually bestowed upon the wearer, I only recall Gandalf mentioning them being rather unsuitable for mortals to weild, given their potency, something like that). And even if elemental properties did have something to do with it, air or wind causes large waves and surges at sea, and could have been utilised to some effect... just a thought, though all this 'calling of elements' sounds like a Final Fantasy game.   

[EG]

I was always under the impression that Elrond did use Vilya to aid the rising of the river.

As this is at the start of the "war of the Ring", holding Vilya in Rivendell would surely disguise in part its existence to Sauron.  But, wasnt Sauron well aware of who held the Elven Rings, but that their bearers chose not to use them during this time in order to not draw attention to them and the plans surrounding them for destroying the One Ring

hmmm that all sounds a little jumbled.  But what I mean is that the use of the Elven Rings drew Sauron's attention, much as the use of the One Ring did.  and they obviously wanted to avoid this 

[EG]

Lessa

Could it have been something more mundane like a small lake behind a dam with sluice gates? He could then have used a little magia to open them in a hurry.

Lessa

[EG]

Lyri

It's also been  speculated that since Vilya was the Ring of Air, it may have been some aid with wind and rapidly melting snows high in the mountains that could cause a quick flood. Gandalf says:

Gandalf: "Elrond commanded it. The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford ... There is great vigour in the waters that come down from the snows of the Misty Mountains" (JRRT, FOTR)

Just another interesting idea to throw out there. 

[EG]

K8

I think that'd have to be a pretty large blast of wind for it to cause that much water to fall down the mountain simultaneusly, especially in that massive crest of wave. If it had come down from the mountain, I think the levels would rise slightly more slowly.

Plus, Elrond would have to have had a lot of forewarning to do his big blast of wind thing....it would take a few hours or so for water to get down from the top of the mountain. I know that he has the premonition thing, but I doubt that it tells him exactly when people are going to arrive.

[EG]

Celebrimbor

Celebrimbor, the creator of The Three, originally held all of them. Nenya he pased to Galadriel directly. Vilya and Narya he passed jointly to Gil-Galad, before Gil-Galad passed Vilya to Elrond, and Narya to Cirdan.

That's right I did 

Anyways, I always thought the rings allowed all three elves to harness, as such, the power of the three different elements, fire, air and water, and also establish a direct link with one another's conscience or spirit. Hence how they could use a form of telepathy to one another over long distances without the need for a palantir. This is how Gandalf could resist the flaming sword of the Balrog, how Elrond formed like an invisible barrier around Rivendell to keep unwanted enemies out, and Lothlorien's beauty was preserved, probably with the gift of water, until Galadriel left middle earth, then it all withered and died. That's what I think anyways. 

[EG]

Erkenbrand

The three rings were given as a means to protect the High-Elven realms-in-exile in Middle-Earth.  That's why the three Rings were given to Elrond, Galadriel and Cirdan.  No Ring was given to Thranduil in Greenwood the Great, because that wasn't a Noldorin kingdom.  As we know, Cirdan gave his Ring to Gandalf when he reached the shores of Middle-Earth, because he felt that the Ring could be of more use to him, which it was.  The other two Elven Rings were used specifically for what they were made for - to protect their respective kingdoms.

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