Moria Gate

[EG]

When the Dwarves of beautiful Khazad-Dum built their Western door, why did they allow it to be inscribed with the insulting name of "Moria" ("Black Pit"), a name that would only be earned long years afterwards?

[Lessa]

Khazad-dûm probably predates the first age and the doors of Durn weren't made until well into the reign of King Durin III during the second age. As to why the mane Moria was inscribed look here at the last paragraph.

[Taurendil]

In fact it says:

"Ennyn Durin Aran Moria: pedo mellon a minno. Im Narvi hain echant: Celebrimboro Eregion teithant thiw hin" ,

which means

"The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria: Speak, friend, and enter. I, Narvi, made them. Celebrimbor of Hollin drew these signs.''

So it's Celebrimbor who wrote Moria. For elves who didn't really like caverns or mountains name Moria was quite normal

[Mithrandir]

Taurë, I think you are missing the point (or I am). What E.G. is saying is that when Celebrimbor drew the gate, Khazad-dûm wasn't known as Moria.

However, if I remember correctly, doesn't the name "Moria" predate Khazad-dûm and was in fact a name for Nogrod at one point, so it is possible that Celebrimbor took the name Moria for Khazad-dûm once Nogrod had gone? Also, there is the issue that those signs are in Sindarin, rather than Khuzdul, so you could argue that they didn't really care.

But, I think you're right in saying that in general, Khazad-dûm wasn't known as Moria until the dwarves had deserted it. This does, however, bring up a different question: what did the elves call Khazad-dûm before it was known as Moria?

[Lessa]

the elves called it Hadhodrond.

I have no idea if either Nogrod or Belegost were ever called Moria though

[Taurendil]

The signs are Quenya.  Hadhodrond is Sindarin. Never heard of Nogrod called as Moria.
Encyclopedia of Arda says that word Moria was first used in III 1980.

"The name 'Moria' is often used as a synonym for Khazad-dûm. This is not strictly correct - 'Moria' was not used of the ancient Dwarf-city until after it was deserted by the Dwarves themselves - but by the late Third Age the two names had come to be used interchangeably."

So it appears strange that Celebrimbor, who was slain in the second age, wrote 'Moria' before it was deserted. And the Encyclopedia's date is not correct.

However it maybe that Moria was only used amongst the elves before it was abandoned by the dwarves. Afterwards the name came into common use.

[Lessa]

I found an article in wikipedia which gives us the Quenya name

the city he named Khazad-dûm, which became known later as The Dwarrowdelf in the Common Speech, Hadhodrond by the Sindar, and Casarrondo by the Ñoldor.

[Taurendil]

Anyways in the LotR the inscription is said to be Quenya. Maybe there are 2 variants. Since there's the earlier and LotR version of Quenya.

[Mithrandir]

Does anybody here own Hammond and Scull's The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion? If so, visit pages 281/282 which might help to clarify this issue.

[Lessa]

no sorry could you put the quote on here please Mithrandir

[Mithrandir]

It's a very long bit, y'see, but, I shall quote it now.

"Durin, Lord of Moria - Durin III was the ruler of Khazad-dûm when the Doors were made.

It has often been pointed out the Moria was hardly what the ruler of Khazad-dûm would have chosen to have inscribed on his doors. In Book II, Chapter 3, Gimli refers to 'Khazad-dûm, the Dwarrowdelf, that is now called the Black Pit, Moria in the Elvish tongue', which indicates that it was not always called 'Moria'. Most commentators have taken the view that this name did not come into use until after the appearance of the Balrog in Third Age 1980, and have queried the use of Moria on the West-gate as both anachronistic and undiplomatic; compare, in The Silmarillion: 'Greatest of all mansions of the Dwarves was Khazad-dûm, the Dwarrowdelf, Hadhodrond in the Elvish tongue, that was afterwards in the the days of its darkness called Moria' (emphasis ours). But in Appendix F Tolkien says that 'Moria is an Elvish name, and given without love; for the Eldar, though they might at need, in their bitter wars with the Dark Power and his servants, contrive fortresses underground, were not dwellers in such places of choice. They were lovers of the green earth, the lights of heaven; and Moria in their tongue means the Black Chasm'. This suggests that the name was given because Khazad-dûm was underground, not beause of any particular horror or darkness.

Jeff Stevenson comments in a letter to Amon Hen 103 (May 1990) that

if MORIA was in fact inscribed on the doors when Frodo arrived there, this can only mean either: (1) Celebrimbor foresaw the name; (2) a later craftsman had re-worked the inscription; or (3) the magic lettering had re-arranged itself when the name 'Moria' was first uttered by the Elves. Alternatively, HADHODROND was on the Doors all along, but Gandalf read out 'Moria' for this, in the same way that he read out 'Hollin' when EREGION was inscribed. In this scenario, the illustrator of the Red Book derived his calligraphy by translating Gandalf's interpretation back into Elvish, without considering the history of the Doors."

[Lessa]

I think I'll say Gandalf substituted Moria so those with him would know what he meant without explanation

Thanks Mithrandir

[EG]

Alternatively, HADHODROND was on the Doors all along, but Gandalf read out 'Moria' for this, in the same way that he read out 'Hollin' when EREGION was inscribed. In this scenario, the illustrator of the Red Book derived his calligraphy by translating Gandalf's interpretation back into Elvish, without considering the history of the Doors."

I think that this sounds most likely.....

it seems that it was only called Moria, after the Eldar became alien to the Dwarves and their love of darkness ?

[Taurendil]

Alternatively, HADHODROND was on the Doors all along, but Gandalf read out 'Moria' for this, in the same way that he read out 'Hollin' when EREGION was inscribed. In this scenario, the illustrator of the Red Book derived his calligraphy by translating Gandalf's interpretation back into Elvish, without considering the history of the Doors."

I think that this sounds most likely.....

it seems that it was only called Moria, after the Eldar became alien to the Dwarves and their love of darkness ?

I don't think that is possible. Didn't Tolkien himself draw that Gate? And in that picture u could read:
"Ennyn Durin Aran Moria: pedo mellon a minno. Im Narvi hain echant: Celebrimboro Eregion teithant thiw hin"

That's why I suppose that Quenya word Moria was used by the elves long before it was deserted. Since the elves didn't like underground places, as is pointed out in that book, it's possible that they used that name. Besides, the inscription IS Quenya and why should there be Hadhodrond, which is Sindarin?? It also may be that the 'Black Chasm' was always the only word for that place in Quenya.

[Mithrandir]

No, Taurendil, the inscription is Sindarin. Sindarin plurals are formed by mutations of the vowels: "Ennyn" is the plural of "Annon".

Casarrondo is the Quenya name for Moria, I think.

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