.. of wraiths

[EG]

During the Council of Elrond, Gandalf asserts that “...the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still...”
In The Silmarillion, in the chapter “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age,” Tolkien writes that “the One and the Seven and the Nine are destroyed; and the Three have passed away,”
 In Letter 246 to Mrs. Eileen Elgar in September 1963, Tolkien specifically stated that Sauron “held” the Nine Rings, which is almost always read to mean physical possession of them; but again, there are those that dispute this interpretation.

What I was wondering is, did the wraiths not have to wear their rings to continue to be wraiths... i,e not "die"

At what stage do they become official wraiths.. and are not dependant on the Rings to turn them ? I know this is impossible to answer to a "year" but... isnt it strange that they continued to survive...

I suppose, you could argue that they could only die, at the hand of a "no-man", or was that only pertaining to the Witch King

[Taurendil]

I think that they didn't have to wear them. The rings turned them into wraiths forever with them or without they are still wraiths. As for the Witch King, in the Appendices it's said that Glorfindel predicted such fate for him. Smth like 'far off is yet his doom, and not by the hand of man will he be killed'. There's nothing to say about  other Nazgul 

[Taurendil]

Here's another quote

‘The Three, fairest of all, the Elf-lords hid from him, and his hand never touched them or sullied them. Seven the Dwarf-kings possessed, but three he has recovered, and the others the dragons have consumed. Nine he gave to Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them. Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great Shadow, his most terrible servants. Long ago. It is many a year since the Nine walked abroad. Yet who knows? As the Shadow grows once more, they too may walk again. But come! We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
‘So it is now: the Nine he has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still. But that no longer troubles him. He only needs the One; for he made that Ring himself, it is his, and he let a great part of his own former power pass into it, so that he could rule all the others. If he recovers it, then he will command them all again, wherever they be, even the Three, and all that has been wrought with them will be laid bare, and he will be stronger than ever.

Though this not necessarily means that he had the Nine

[EG]

well yes Sauron had the Nine... does that mean then that once he held the Rings and had control over the Nine Kings of Men...they started to turn "wraith like" then   i.e became ghostly....

[Lessa]

you know EG I think you are right. He gave the rings to the nine king after he had been discovered by the elves in his guise as Annatar. Annatar was known to be a very persuasive being and sio the gift of the rings would have been an easy thing to accomplish thereby starting the process of their tranformation.

[EG]

hmm so now my memory is fading!  (forgive the ancient person I am )  The Kings gradually became wraith like as soon as Sauron had handed the Nine to them, and fell under his control...  Or (and this is where my memory fades!) did he give them to the Nine, and then gather them back,, and then they became wraith like ?

Im only gettting confused over this, because Sauron gathered up the Dwarven Rings didnt he ? after giving them to the Dwarves ?

[Taurendil]

It seems there cannot be a certain decision, there’s no enough information (at least information we remember). Both variants are possible. I’m inclined to think that he first gave them the rings as well as to the dwarves, then putting on the rings Men fell under the power of the One. I suppose after it he ‘gathered’ them back to himself. The same happened with the dwarven rings, except only that dwarves turned out to be more stout.

[Mithrandir]

hmm so now my memory is fading!  (forgive the ancient person I am )  The Kings gradually became wraith like as soon as Sauron had handed the Nine to them, and fell under his control...  Or (and this is where my memory fades!) did he give them to the Nine, and then gather them back,, and then they became wraith like ?

Im only gettting confused over this, because Sauron gathered up the Dwarven Rings didnt he ? after giving them to the Dwarves ?

I have often though about this myself. And, with the logic of the dwarven rings (and the quotes), I have come to conclusion that the rings were in his possession, as what happened with the dwarven rings.

Also, the process of becoming a wraith does not have to be linked to the rings. Afterall, without Elrond's intervention, Frodo may have become a wraith.

[EG]

thats true..... so what makes them a wraith then ?  Ive always connected the wraiths with the Rings.. well, because the wraiths were the ones who received the rings.....

How did stabbing Frodo in the shoulder mean he would become a wraith... unless I suppose its because the "poison" of the existing wraiths was transferred to him... and does this mean, that for instance anyone else stabbed, by say, the Witch King at the Pelennor Fields, who did not die, also became wraith

[Lessa]

Could it also be because he was stabbed whilst wearing the master ring and so was already partly a wraith for that moment in time

[Taurendil]

Maybe only the master ring made them Ringwraiths? the nine originally were made for the elves and only to answer the one ring

[Lessa]

That's a distinct posibility

[Mithrandir]

I personally think it was nothing to do with the rings. I think it was Sauron's infuence through the nine rings which turned them into ringwraiths in the first place; but I think it was the influence of the morgul blade who turned people into wraiths. Gandalf, Many Meetings:

"'They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have became a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring, if any greater torment were possible than being robbed of it and seeing it on his hand."

Furthermore, in The Houses of Healing, Aragorn said of Faramir inflicted with Black Breath:

"He is a man of staunch will, for already he had come close under the Shadow before ever he rode to battle on the out-walls. Slowly the dark must have crept on him, even as he fought and strove to hold his outpost. Would that I could have been here sooner!"

Encyclopaedia of Arda describes wraiths as:

"Ghostly beings that existed more in the hidden Wraith-world than our own. The most famous of these were the Ring-wraiths, Men ensnared by Sauron's Nine Rings, but their victims, too, were transformed into wraiths. "

[EG]

does that mean then, only the ones that were stabbed by a morgul blade, transformed into wraiths... but the ones killed by it didnt ?

if so, I wonder how many, other wraiths were out there ?  all seems potentially Twilight Zonish!

[Beleriel]

Is it safe to assume do you think, that anyone killed by a Ringwraith would be  dead, just dead.  But if they are stabbed or injured by a Morgul Blade then they would have become a wraith?  All of whom would be gone now anyway due to the destruction of the One Ring?

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