Middle Earth: history or myth?

[Taurendil]

Do you believe that ME could have existed in the past? It's not clear if Tolkien created a myth linked to reality or wrote a history or both. Personally I think it is quite possible if it was very long ago. In one of his interviews Tolkien stated that we live at the end of sixth or at the beginning of seventh age. What is your opinion? 

[Gollum]

I don't think it existed as a whole, but the ideas of it certainly did, and by that I mean the aspects of life and beliefs. Tolkien certainly got some of his ideas from the past. However, if it did exist then there would be some sort of archeological evidence which could be found. So that's a no for me.

[Beleriel]

I dont know about that Gollum.  It is very difficult to find archaeological evidence of things like wood and fabrics.  Which is why there is so little evidence about what went on during the Dark Ages.  I think it is a very likely that 'Tolkiens' world existed before he wrote about it. 

One of the problems is that archaelogical finds are always open to interpretation.  And quite often that interpretation follows along agreed 'norms' which ALSO quite often dont fit and have to be changed!  Sometimes archaeologists have real difficulties explaining what they find and I think that is why.  The problem is that there is a lot of subjectivity involved and ones persons interpretation might well not fit anothers'.  Who is to say that some of the buildings they find in various places might not be the remain of Edoras for example?  Just because they decide something is Egyptian or sumsuch thing does not necessarily mean they are accurate.

I believe that is existed anyway.  As I have said many times before.   

[Lessa]

I tend to agree with you Beleriel. I too don't think we know enough about the past to dismiss the possibility.

Lessa

[Taurendil]

And I thought I was the only one here to believe in this possibility.

Archaeological evidence you say? But it is most likely that original shape of Middle Earth has greatly changed, similarly to the changing after the downfall of Numenor or the War of Wroth. Thus no trace of the civilazation of ME have been conserved.

[Gollum]

But something usually remains, either bone or remnants of a former structure, even ditches forming defenses or boundaries, all of which can be carbon dated within a certain degree of accuracy. This could then be contrasted with calculations regarding continental drift, hence leading to the whereabouts of the numerous tectonic plates.

[Taurendil]

If you refering to my preceding reply then I should say that I meant the utter change of the Earth, maybe even complete destruction of ME, like the Atlantis for example. There is no knowledge of how big ME was, but if we judge by the well-known map, it's not quite big. Smaller than Europe. It could have disappered without leaving any trace, maybe gradually drowning in the sea.

[Cosmin-Coral]

...There is no knowledge of how big ME was, but if we judge by the well-known map, it's not quite big. Smaller than Europe. It could have disappered without leaving any trace, maybe gradually drowning in the sea.

Rivendell to Carhadras: 40 days
ME must have been huge - there were civalizations we know hardly anything about out to the East and South. And the Numenoreans also visited other landmasses.

This shows one idea of how they might have matched up.

[Taurendil]

It's not very much, 40 days, for journeying on foot in the wild. I don't think it's size is bigger than that of Australia. Anyway ME could have been completely destructed and re-shaped during following ages.

[Hyllyn]

But something usually remains, either bone or remnants of a former structure, even ditches forming defenses or boundaries, all of which can be carbon dated within a certain degree of accuracy. This could then be contrasted with calculations regarding continental drift, hence leading to the whereabouts of the numerous tectonic plates.

One characteristic of human settling practices is to make use of preceding constructions, these end up being adapted to their specific architectural needs, just like Saxons adapted Roman defences and then Norman structures were capitalized on during tudor times, and so on and on.

You have to bear in mind that from a speculative point of view (if/when) Middle Earth existed as it is portrayed in geological terms continental drift is not a cataclysmic event, it is an evolutionary one and takes periods of times which could see a kingdom come and go, what really can deface a known map of Ancient Earth is more dynamically "moved" events such as ice ages and the consequential scarring/shaping caused by glacier melting. Parts of Kent were once a desert so what makes you think that highly perishable items or even marklands would be imperishable? pretty much nothing is and tracking ancient civilizations has its limits, even if anything had survived the last glaciation we are talking of a set of civilizations that needed to be there before 30,000 years ago at least and that is a really long time for a lot of things to happen.

C.C I have a document somewhere called meridional grid on M.E that maybe you might be interested on. The map you posted is almost spot on to the calculations given on the document.

Taurendil the issue of recknoning of ages or time is a tricky one, even if Tolkien dared to say a 6th or 7th age that means there would have been a formula to calculate it and the impression it gives from the books is that highly important events are what decide this not pre-set amounts of years.

Also please anyone who might come after don't try and say that because "tolkien meant for this to be a mythology of Britain" that all of M.E really fits in Wales or even the whole of Britain, it is ridiculous to say the least.

One more thing I need to add, there are people who believe and people who don't, then there are some who collect bits and bobs of information to support their argument, and trust me there are many, just let's put it simple, if the Tolkien Estate was interested in ever saying that there are actual and factual elements that define this story as part of a set of older mythology of a distant past then that day will come after C. Tolkien dies, simply the royalties are too great for them to even consider letting go of the golden hen. (if there was such a thing they could disclose of course) 

[Taurendil]

I don't know why, but the idea of matching ME with Europe seems absurd to me. Yet even if it so, there wouldn't be any traces left, because of serious changes of the land and a long period of time.

[Beleriel]

I think if you look at the map CC has posted you can see that ME extends beyond Europe.

[Hyllyn]

I don't know why, but the idea of matching ME with Europe seems absurd to me. Yet even if it so, there wouldn't be any traces left, because of serious changes of the land and a long period of time.

Why would that be? Certainly the mythology contained in the books is closer to Europe than that of Africa or the Middle East or anywhere else in the world. Certainly parts of it are anyway and as B stated if you look closely parts of it appear outside Europe.

[Taurendil]

Yes, the history written by Tolkien is closer to the mythology of Europe than to mythology of any other lands. But it was so long ago. At least that statement cannot be taken as truth for sure. I tend to consider ME as a big island rather than a part of the continent.

As a matter of fact the most contradictory thing is that Tolkien states that ME originally was flat, while planets are round, or as he wrote 'bent', from the beginning.

[EG]

I dont know why, I have no reasonable explanantion.  There is plenty of evidence to suppose it did exist... and I beleive it did,

The only thing that I think, wrongly or rightly, is that it didnt all exist at once. i.e that perhaps gondor didnt exist at the same time as Edoras for instance.

There is a Tolkien letter, which where he tries to explain which time era each area of ME existed in... e.g. Edoras, being Medieval... but he also says that Gondor is partly Egyptian ..............

Thank you very much for your letter.... It came while I was away, in Gondor (sc. Venice), as a change from the North Kingdom, or I would have answered before.

Letter 168

I have no doubt that in the area envisaged by my story (which is large) the 'dress' of various peoples, Men and others, was much diversified in the Third Age, according to climate, and inherited custom. As was our world, even if we only consider Europe and the Mediterranean and the very near 'East' (or South), before the victory in our time of the least lovely style of dress (especially for males and 'neuters') which recorded history reveals – a victory that is still going on, even among those who most hate the lands of its origin. The Rohirrim were not 'mediaeval', in our sense. The styles of the Bay eux Tapestry (made in England) fit them well enough, if one remembers that the kind of tennis-nets [the] soldiers seem to have on are only a clumsy conventional sign for chain-mail of small rings.
The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled 'Egyptians' – the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And in their great interest in ancestry and in tombs. (But not of course in 'theology' : in which respect they were Hebraic and even more puritan – but this would take long to set out:

Letter 211

This is what Tolkien says about the existence of ME .......... but are we to beleive him ?  Or was it a cover up, for some evidence that hasnt yet been released

Mine is not an 'imaginary' world, but an imaginary historical moment on 'Middle-earth' – which is our habitation.

Letter 184

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