This is very interesting if you are not a liberal demowishy washer that is

[Taurendil]

If these extremists (better word?) want to cause riots, burn flags and threaten Europe, fair enough....just DON'T do it in our countries!  Get out, go back to where you come from...THEN have a moan.

I think thats fair, don't you?

Fair that is. I agree.

Personally I feel that although it is somehow "against" their wishes for there to be depictions of Mohammad (or depictions of Mohammad as a terrorist), I do think they have taken it as an excuse to attack the West, yet again. The author of that text makes a valid point - other religions don't go off on one when people do things that disagree with their feelings (although I heard a Catholic guy in Horsham yesterday saying that lesbianism was an abomination - although he wasn't rioting).

It's their nature and culture that makes them go off, and the intellectual level of those people. That's why that people're offended and angry.

[Lissa]

If these extremists (better word?) want to cause riots, burn flags and threaten Europe, fair enough....just DON'T do it in our countries!  Get out, go back to where you come from...THEN have a moan.

I think thats fair, don't you?

Does it make such a difference where they burn the flags? Whether they burn the flag down your street or in their country of origin, the sentiment remains the same, doesn't it?

[Blaen]

Why do people always assume someone burning a flag is a gesture that they want violence? Flag burning has a much deeper meaning when you think about it. Burning a flag is burning the bonds that bind us to nationhood. It is nations that war with each other, people are just the people who get caught in the cross fire for political gain. When you think about it, destroying nations would be a good thing. The sooner we realise that we are all humans and we are all the same, reguardless of race, creed or location in the world, the better.

 Oh and also, what if they're born in Britain? That makes them British so what other country are they going to go back to but the country they're currently situated in?

[Mithrandir]

Why do people always assume someone burning a flag is a gesture that they want violence? Flag burning has a much deeper meaning when you think about it. Burning a flag is burning the bonds that bind us to nationhood. It is nations that war with each other, people are just the people who get caught in the cross fire for political gain. When you think about it, destroying nations would be a good thing. The sooner we realise that we are all humans and we are all the same, reguardless of race, creed or location in the world, the better.

 Oh and also, what if they're born in Britain? That makes them British so what other country are they going to go back to but the country they're currently situated in?

A flag is symbolic of a country, a symbol of national identity held up to the world - by burning it you are effectively saying you want nothing to do with that country and hate their values and beliefs.

It's never been an issue in this country, I think, to burn a flag - maybe because in comparison with other countries, we aren't very patriotic at all.

Patriotism in the USA is very important indeed, and that is why they consider it such a big issue to burn the flag (even to extent of trying to amend the Constitution).

[Blaen]

Patriotism is stupid. Why die for your country when you can let someone else die for theirs instead? Never understood that whole American patriotism thing anyway. The land wasn't even theirs in the first place. I know no land belongs to anyone in the first place but America is often trumpeted as the most patriotic of nations. I guess they're just paranoid and think that any moment the lands they enslaved millions to tame will be taken from them.

[Cuthien, Wolf-maiden]

Wow...ouch...I thank you, as an American. 

[Edge]

*claps*

Blaen, that was brilliant.  LOL! 



The majority of my problems with the reactions to these cartoons is the fact that the cartoons depict connections between the Islamic faith, and violence- and then a few yahoos proceed to prove writers image by rioting in protest!

It is a shame that there are people out there that don't know their head from their arse when it comes to dealing and reacting to this sort of thing, because more often than not, it all ends in tears for these yahoos.


I'm Irish, and in the (false) 'country' I currently live in (Northern Ireland) I've endured alot of finger pointing, witnessed and heard alot of sectarian prejudice and taken alot of abuse in the street for being who I am.....especially in regard to appearance.

Point is, I'm not about to start a riot and burn anyone's flag for the sake of revenge, or for the sake of provokation- it'd only prove a point to the other side; their point; and not only that, but of course, to be so easily offended by minor cultural jibes would be weak on my part.

One thing that I can't stand though is when a side in any disagreement of ideology take it upon themselves to provoke in a very serious way the other side in an attempt to provoke rioting in order to put a spin on the acts as 'nothing more than that side's prediliction for violence' as is so often the case. The main example of this that I can see is in this so-called country during the *marching season*.....Loyalist pyres with Irish flags, Celtic flags, a mural of the hunger-strikers and the name of the 15 year old a gang of Loyalists beaten to death this Summer being set alight immediately springs to mind as an example of why you could understand rioting.....in certain circumstances.


The difference? The fact that a satirical cartoon could be aimed at anyone without directly harming or directly damaging anyone; satirical cartoons are drawn of EVERY kind of person on this planet.....the stakes become higher when it is an actual threat or act of direct provokation.

This is why I don't see the cartoons as anything more than a stupid thing to do, but harmless.....I've seen direct provokation, I've seen reason to riot- and a cartoon certainly is not just that.


On a smaller scale, I'm also not about to burn Burberry factories down in retaliation for chavs provoking me by saying 'I'll knaak yer ballix in!' or something to such charming effect and generally making things difficult for me for being who I am.....because you know; some things in life have to be taken with salt- if by some small chance a day of conflict comes with these types, that day will be met with great rage and force; but the chances of fighting a human mouthpiece are small if you're careful.....lol! 


I think the main point here is that people the world over need to calm the hell down, realise that they are not the most important person/people in the world and come down off their pedestal.....this isn't Medievil times where battles are fought and minor insults were rewarded with death- maybe people should pull their heads out of their arses long enough to realise that we, on this planet, are supposed to work together to better it; not squabble like children as nations, hide behind our borders and mistrust what is different simply because of the human brain's uncannily strange ability to generate 'opinions.'

The fighting, bickering and whining needs to stop- but at what point people realise that I'm afraid to say is unknown.



(*For those who don't know; the Northern Ireland marching season, is a point in time during the Summer, from June to August where the Orange Order, a group of Loyalist fanatics consistantly plan marches to remember their heritage by marching down Catholic Nationalist areas in order to provoke tension, to make themselves seem superior and of course to prove a point- this brings the place to a standstill, as we're often dealing with riots and territory battles in the aftermath of the main marches. Not a good time for a Nationalist to be around, let me assure you!*  )

[Cuthien, Wolf-maiden]

*claps*

Blaen, that was brilliant.  LOL! 



The majority of my problems with the reactions to these cartoons is the fact that the cartoons depict connections between the Islamic faith, and violence- and then a few yahoos proceed to prove writers image by rioting in protest!


I think the main point here is that people the world over need to calm the hell down, realise that they are not the most important person/people in the world and come down off their pedestal.....this isn't Medievil times where battles are fought and minor insults were rewarded with death- maybe people should pull their heads out of their arses long enough to realise that we, on this planet, are supposed to work together to better it; not squabble like children as nations, hide behind our borders and mistrust what is different simply because of the human brain's uncannily strange ability to generate 'opinions.'

Quite honestly, I must say that I agree.  Believe it or not, Muslims are not the only group to get satirized or whatever.  And yet some of them (as well as many people who are not of any religious faith) seem to think otherwise.  And then come the riots (so peaceful...) and the news reports, and then the accusations, and then the eventual reasoning that some political leader (George Bush, Tony Blair, or anyone else...probably Ghandi (sp?) if he was still alive...) actually created the plague by wishing very hard on a star. 

Please.   

[Icy]

Indeed Edge, I must agree.

People just take things so seriously, and no one any more seems to have a sense of humour.  Ok, a Cartoon was made about ya - get over it!

People need to realise that rioting and arsing about is a waste of time, and life is to short to have so much anger and hatred in you. 

Religion should be eradicated.  Religion is what causes hatred - it doesn't save anyone, it doesn't help anyone...it just seperates people.  Muslim's, Christian's, Jehovah's Witnesses....all of them are as bad as one another.  They can't seem to accept anyone who is different to themselves.  I've been shouted at by loads of people from different religions, just because I have a different belief to them! 

Religion has caused all of this hatred, violence, anger.  And I think it's about time we get rid of it.

[Cuthien, Wolf-maiden]

I don't agree with you on that point, Icy.  See, I'm a Christian, and the last time I checked, Christians aren't supposed to scream and yell and rant and bomb people if they are not agreed with.  I'm sorry you've had that kind of experience with other Christians.  I strongly believe what I believe, but I wouldn't scream at you. 

The problem with eradicating religion is that religion is a basic human right and freedom.  If you take that one away, then others are sure to follow (such as freedom of speech...I should know, it's happening over here ...)  The problem comes when people overreact.  Riots over cartoons do nothing but prove the cartoons are right. 

[Icy]

Christianity isn't blameless either, mind you.  Was it not the Church, who killed over 100,000 innocent people, because they did Witchcraft (apparantly).  Is it not the Christian Bible which says Witchcraft is wrong?  Is it not the Christian Bible which says 'to not worship any other God but me"?

All religions based on a book is flawed, as the books were originally stories, which were, for some reason, taken literally.

Just because I'm Pagan, I'm a heathen, I've been told!  By numerous people, not just Christian's! 

I'm not saying Christians are like this, IE individuals, but the religions history as a whole.

[Cuthien, Wolf-maiden]

Sadly, throughout history The Church (as it's called) has been mistaken for actual Christianity, which it's not.  Yes, God does say the we should have no other gods before Him.  That's what I believe.  Just...The Church as the history books (the badly written history books, I must say, not only in religious matters but matters such as basic grammar lol) represent it is vastly different from true Christianity, which is based on the action of one Person, not a book, because the word "Christian" means "little Christ" which began as an insult term rather than an identification as it is today...anyway.  (LOL...you've just helped me get ready for part of my History of Civilization test...)

I'm just sorry that Christians (or anyone, for that matter...) have screamed in your face instead of speaking in love. 

[Icy]

Your the first Christian I have met who hasn't screamed in my face for being a Witch, and I've met loads of Christian's.  It just goes to show that your in the minority there. 

But I feel for my Sisters who died years ago, because the Church were just scraed that women were actually stronger than men, and the CHurch, being a very masculine thing, had to stamp it out.  Which I find sad, and the ancient religions, such as Pagans, are the only religions that truly show equality with men and women.

Hence why I think Christianity, Islam...all these new religions, are very outdated now, even though they are newer than the ancient religions!

And what I really don't understand, is why can't you worship any other god but him?  Worshipping a God anyway is only a security thing, so who cares what God's name you say?  Surely a God which imposes such a rule, is very nasty and must have had a power-trip?

[Nightwing]

hea‧then  [hee-thuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural -thens, -then, adjective

–noun
1.   an unconverted individual of a people that do not acknowledge the God of the Bible; a person who is neither a Jew, Christian, nor Muslim; pagan.

So erm actually Icy, that's not an insult per se. Of course this is just a technicality, and I'm sure that wherever you heard it, it was probably meant to be insulting.

The church of history was just the most visible form of crhistianity. As rioters/threatening terrorists are the most visible form of Islam today. That doesn't make it the generally accepted view of such a religion. Throughout history, there have been many Christians who have rebelled against the Church and its decrees, for various reasons. Many are probably in line with the general teachings of any religion.

Not worshipping any other God also comes into play from a religous perspective. The commandments of a religion obviously apply only to a follower of that religion. So Christians, Muslims, Jews etc can not worship any other God. As the basis of these beliefs is that there is in fact no other God, it follows that worshipping any other is contradictory for that religion, and therefore not indicative as such of any power-trip.

There isn't actually anything otudated about the religions of the Book, so to speak. What is outdated is the interpretation and the manner used to follow the teachings. Religion is not the cause for any strife. Humans are completely capable of such atrocities all by themselves. Religion has simply for centuries provided a convenient excuse, and with the sway it holds over those who believe in it, a convenient tool with which to stir up passions. Where there is an absence of religion, the void is filled by patriotism, or some other such emotion-stirring vehicle.

But back to the point, I still maintain for any that will accept it, that the riots that are seen are a social phenomenon and not a relious one. How many working/studying people have time to go out in the middle of the day and burn effigies? How many people whose current lives are not drowned in a number of problems with no visible solution actually go marching through the streets whenever any minor person demands it of them? How many do any such things unless they're part of some union 8-)

The great wars over religion ended, and political wars began. Now we see a merger of the two because for mankind to live peacefully, it must accept the faults within. Within its society, its structure and the person. Such dark places that aree too dreadful to even look into are avoided by the sort of mindless war-mongering you see now. And the reason Islam plays such a predominant part here is that "Muslim countries" are generally more impoverished with a large population of people underwhelmed by their leaders policies. If they could focus this anger, they might be able to do something. Since it is not in the interest of any such leader to allow this, expect to see such rioting for a long long time. And occassionally, enough brainwashing rabble-babble can galvanise certain gullible individuals to take the next few steps over the cliff, into the abyss.

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