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« : December 06, 2005, 01:04:11 AM »

Strictly speaking this doesn't concern 'Other works' section but the elves.
Have you ever thought of living for the mankind like the elves? I mean to live in harmony with nature, not urbanising and damaging it by poisoning the air, water, cutting forests and so on. Not to destroy the given beauty of the world. The elves do not tame the world they are living in, but dignify it. Using creative abilities they improve the world, and aren’t chasing after material treasures and power like we do

I amar prestar aen, han mathon ne nen, han mathon ne chae a han noston ned 'wilith.
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« #1 : December 06, 2005, 02:08:59 AM »

 That's all good Taurendil and I understand what you mean.

 Unfortunately a full broad depiction of any race has to touch the issues of waste and use of resources.

 Even aboriginal peoples have waste (human ones as well), and they use resources just like any other, the difference lies with different factors; Population Density (which is why we speak of sustainable use of any resources), A Capitalist/Industrialist set of values (which is what makes people hoard and covet and want to get more and more, it's never enough profit for them), and Moral values (the ones which would work if anything in the world was perfect).

 The moral values sort of regulate the other two as we do have after all a set of conceptions set by classical civilizations as opposed to what would have otherwise been a celtic europe. As a consequence we evolved technically, took over other people's lands, kept disabled people alive (which doesn't happen with natural selection), and an awful array of artificial practices which got even more distorted with the growth of population. Growth of population then dictated the need to produce more and use more resources with the obvious consequences.

 So what am I getting at here? If our moral values allowed to be less politically correct, and manage our numbers in a way which doesn't wreck the planet then maybe we would do the sensible thing and live in smaller numbers, in groups of up to 100 or so which are easier to manage as a community, and then not over exploit the resources around us, is that going to happen tho? obviously not, however there are efforts made by people who try and live self sufficiently and with a conscious and respectful attitude towards their environment, and that is as good as it's going to get.
« : December 06, 2005, 02:18:31 AM H˙llyn »
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« #2 : December 06, 2005, 04:29:15 AM »

We also live on this planet.  One that has natural restrictions on what we can and cant do, as you say, waste is always a natural process.  Perhaps we could have less destructive waste, but in evolutionary terms, that would be taking a step backwards.

You also assume that the elves lead an untroubled life.  Yes, they have respect for everytthing and everyone, but that did not mean they got the same respect back, and through this were forced into taking measures to protect themselves, which made them less free.

The elven life sounds so idealistic... but nothing is that simple :(



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« #3 : December 06, 2005, 03:28:54 PM »

I am trying to be in a harmony with the nature,I am trying to comunicate with the nature....and I can here and see a lot of things...Unfortunately the most of the people today forgot what is to comunicate with the nature,some of them have no time for this-they are too busy in the big towns and.......they don't think about this at all..... :(
But yes,it will be great,if tyhe people start to live in a harmony with the nature again.... ::)Then a lot of the things in the world will be changed for good.......

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« #4 : December 06, 2005, 11:16:54 PM »

Perhaps we could have less destructive waste, but in evolutionary terms, that would be taking a step backwards.
Not essentially. In fact less destructive waste is, in my opinion, a step forward for we could use these saved resources in the future more efficiently, when the need for them may be greater.
Speaking of population density, I don’t see the reason for such a restriction of number of people in groups. Actually this is dangerous even, for people must unite in critical cases that affect the whole planet and its people such as meteorite attacks.
The elves it seems to me had no much progress, using their once obtained skills. Individualistic and capitalistic values induce people to exploit the resources as H˙llyn has said, but these values in turn are caused by people’s greediness, competition and will for power and dominion which the elves do not have. The progress of Men, as a result of the above factors, cannot be stopped, but could be controlled by common sense. Hulo_uruk is right: everyone as an individual ought to live in harmony with nature.   
             
« : December 06, 2005, 11:18:49 PM Taurendil »

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« #5 : December 07, 2005, 01:29:23 AM »

less destructive waste, would basically mean taking away plastic.  Which is very hard to recycle and uses fossil fuels to produce.

It would be great to rid ourselves of this bane.. but I think it would be a step backwards, because of the many benefits its gives us.

I think theres much more to the elven way of life, than that of the simplistic one you present.

Im not saying it isnt the ideal way, and one Id love to take... but I dont beleive its as simple as you describe



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« #6 : December 07, 2005, 08:34:37 PM »

I did not mean for the discussion to go that ‘technical’ way to tell you the truth. It is not the outward differences between Men and Elves that matters. Yes it is not as simple as I described it. However, even in Silmarillion, we are not told of the elvish way as it is, as we know ours. Their psychology, inner world is not clearly determined. We’re told of naught but of some of their basic conceptions. I wish people would have more likeness to elves in any ways that are shown in the books.

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« #7 : December 08, 2005, 03:46:33 AM »

i think most of us have at least a little elvish in our blood.  All those who wish for the survival of nature on our planet :-\

but in this world, i doubt it will ever work :-\

(p.s why do you have the ring script in your sig, being akin to the elves?)



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« #8 : December 09, 2005, 02:11:43 AM »

but in this world, i doubt it will ever work :-\

True. But I think if the nature doesn’t survive the mankind and Men themselves will be changed forever. In fact this topic’s title should’ve been Impossible to live like the elves when I was planning it at first.

Quote
(p.s why do you have the ring script in your sig, being akin to the elves?)

That isn’t associated with being akin to the elves. I just like how Gandalf utters the inscription in the Fellowship of the Ring. No connexion with the Dark Lord. May be I shall change it some time but not now.



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« #9 : March 23, 2006, 03:33:47 PM »

i dont believe that it is impossable theere are many communities in the world that live in very similar way to elves.  it is my great task in life to one day live in such harmony with nature as the elves do. should a group like ourselves group together and move our selves to a location where we have the ability to live peacefully as an elven community it could work you just have to have faith. and i look forward to that day.

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« #10 : March 23, 2006, 04:52:39 PM »

A group of people, a small group of people can manage without advantages and comforts of progress and technologies. What do you understand under 'to live in harmony in nature', by the way? It may mean living exactly like the elves, i.e. not to cultivate nature, only take what it gives us, not what we want. Or maybe to live self-sufficiently with some interference in nature but not harming it, if it's possible at all. Men cannot live without bringing changes in their surroundings, without development. To my way of thinking the task is to organise life as much as possible harmless to the nature and to choose not what we want but what is better for us. Looks like utopia doesn't it?

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« #11 : May 22, 2006, 08:35:34 PM »

 I think people are getting the concept wrong. There's no community which can live in that kind of "symbiosis" if you want to address it as such.

 I have partook into experiments of self sufficiency and know of plenty of people living in small communities under a historically based premise, even some who live in non historical ones and the fact is that the model of sustainability does not apply to living in communities. Your closest model is that of Mongols or any other nomads, and that is down to a simple reason... if you settle down you need to make use of the resources of the place, you just don't live off roots and leaves and berries and the odd unfortunate rabbit that falls your way, that happens when you are migrating to somewhere with a small group or even on your own, and trust me in this I know what I am talking about as along with other individuals we are trying to put an experiment together in order to settle a small village in Rovere, Abruzzo.

 The other way you can look at how these models work is to watch what happens in nature. There are no established communities around many things and that speak of cycles where you move from one area to another, and where there are communities these are relatively small for the amount of resources there are, so in a way they will only create a dent on the make up of the ecosystem they live in, unfortunately these are often small animals and we are not small animals.

 To address aboriginal peoples, not all aboriginals leave as you think in "harmony with nature" back where I come from I know more than one tribe who have turned forests and jungles into savannahs because they didn't know the land they had migrated to had a bed of festile soil too thin to withstand the ravages of the incesant burning they subject it to, as a consequence once the trees are gone the soil and even the phreatic layer grows too poor to sustain anything.

  This will sound perhaps too strange or it will be too difficult to digest for some but the truth of the matter is that we have grown too large for this place and the only way to resolve that is through appropiate loss of the gross numbers in the world population, be it through a pandemic or through anything that will do us the favour to wipe a few billion folks (yeah me included if that be the case).

 After that happen then you can start to think about living in small communities where you will need to make use of certain technologies such as running water and waste management because unlike the elves we are prone to disease, and to perhaps cultivate in hydroponics or other alternative methods where you don't need to deforestate, as for livestock, well I much prefer the way Native Americans in the U.S did it, hunt grazing animals and only what you need, that way you need not keep cows or sheep or anything of the sort and it develops a sense of respect for your fellow living things, just as it should be understood that when a predator bites a chunk of you it is part of the process, if we take we need to give, preferably give first.

 Whatever you make of this post don't assume I am knocking anyone's approach, quite the opposite I celebrate so many people wanting to revert to more natural ways of life and that a book helps to bring you closer to it should be a cause to be happy, however we are a particular species and as such we need to work in the ways which first and foremost suit the land that sustains us and second to see to it that we do not become too full of ourselves considering we are more important than anything or the centre of any universe, then maybe we can find a way to live as close to nature as we ever will, but you need to accept that we cannot live without certain things which are part of what makes human life sustainable so do yourselves a favour, stop thinking that elven ways of sustainability can work for you.  ;) The ideals however can help in the process and that is the part that can be of any use to any of you.
« : May 22, 2006, 08:38:31 PM H˙llyn »
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« #12 : May 22, 2006, 11:34:29 PM »

It is not only the question of resources and the number of population primarily. What is important here is the way of thinking of people. Their desires are enormous and actual needs small. So it's the changing of the model of thinking that is needed.

It's not right to adress to aboriginal people, since they live in nature without full realising there's another world and not in harmony with nature. In fact these aboriginal people are just like other civilised people though standing on a lesser phase of development. This reverting to natural surroundings can only be made consciously and also from a high degree of development of society.

Philosophy of this way of living is of greater importance than its practical application, at least now

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« #13 : May 23, 2006, 12:16:36 AM »

 Why isn't it right? if having aboriginal blood doesn't give me the right I don't know what does?  :8o

 The way of thinking is this Taurendil. Go out there, camp in a place away from society and live happily and content by just sitting there, soon you will realise it would be nice if you could put together a makeshift shelter to help keep the rain away from your dry clothes... oh clothes! I need to be able to produce them.. oh manufacture, I need to be able to create tools to manufacture... the list goes on and on and on. And some of these needs are not irrelevant, if you were meant to be naked you would sport some fur or a lot of hair at least, it is a biological fact, our bodies do not control temperature as other animals do, and nor are we insensitive to the need for shelter as a consequence or having to produce the tools to make them all because of our own limitations as a species. It is very easy to talk about what we need or not need when being idealistic without a plan, I do recommend everyone to give it a shot and then they will come back with a list of what they need or not need as from within society you cannot really be objective about your needs outside it. ;)

 Aboriginal Civilization is a misnomer, you need Civita to be a people who is considered as civilized (the term comes from city makers or city dwellers), aboriginal people do not qualify and gladly I must add as civilization is a piece of crap I would much rather be a barbarian anyday (yes in the wrong context not the "foreign-language speaker" it truly means).

 Also it is contradictory you should label them as being in a lesser phase of development, especially after you quote how little needs we really have (or should have), how does it equate?

 Society does not like anything that cannot keep it alive, and reverting to what you call natural surroundings is an antithesis of society as you stop serving society and live for the benefit of those surroundings, not society, it just doesn't relate and as a consequence badly conceptualized.

 Philosophy of this way of living is indeed important indeed but it does not get anywhere without practice, otherwise it is all theoretical and in that way many people can call themselves expert of all but masters of nothing.
« : May 23, 2006, 12:26:49 AM H˙llyn »
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« #14 : May 23, 2006, 01:02:47 AM »

Concerning Aboriginal people.
Saying they're on the lesser phase of development I meant they have less knowledge, they don't  take into the consideration the whole world only their inhabited area. And I don't think that they realise what means to live in harmony with nature, taking into consideration your info about them.

Quote
Society does not like anything that cannot keep it alive, and reverting to what you call natural surroundings is an antithesis of society as you stop serving society and live for the benefit of those surroundings, not society, it just doesn't relate and as a consequence badly conceptualized.

Why? Reverting to more natural ways of life doesn't mean living for the benefit of nature. It means such interrelations between nature and society which in ideal are beneficial to both people and nature. And this can be achieved if people have different way of thinking to the present one. If people desire only essential things. This of course is very vague definition, but it's limited by unharmed nature, so to say.

This elven way of life is indeed utopian, but as you said it's an unachievable ideal.

I amar prestar aen, han mathon ne nen, han mathon ne chae a han noston ned 'wilith.
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