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Icy
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« #60 : January 18, 2006, 05:59:56 PM »

Do you have any idea how to debate?  You don't talk about me, assuming my thoughts and opinions and having a nice little chat about me. 

Firstly, with the baby-rapists.  I KNOW its the judge who is to blame, but what I asked you is, do you think its right that this pig can get out in six years?  You could have a Son or Daughter by then.  But I'm sure you wouldn't mind him coming to get your children.  But sadly, thats what will happen to someone if he gets out. 

I understand people do murder, who have mental problems or in self defence.  But this is about murder, not manslaughter.  In self defence, its different.  And NO, do not twist that around by saying 'but how can you prove its in self defence, blah blah frigging blah'  Again, I mean PROVEN MURDER.

And people who murder with mental problems?  I'm sorry, but if someone's mental problems stretch to that extreme, they should be put to death anyway.

And War.

Did I say anything about the Iraq invasion.  I KNOW that was a frigging invasion, not a war, do not insult my intelligence.  I have told people for months and months that isn't a war, its an invasion.  I agree with you there.

The thing with soldiers is, its their job.  Its their job to protect their country, or get rid of dangerous parties.  They serve their country with their life, and to me, you cannot get a better person who would risk that for his or her people, and I applaud them for that.

A man who kills a child, a mother, a grandmother, a father...in cold blood.  Thats the kind of person I mean.  The kind who kills because of the sick pleasure they get from it, or the twisted thoughts they get from it.

Rotting in jail, sure, its fine, I agree its bad, its what they deserve.  But why should I, my boyfriend, my family, my friend, who work hard all their life....pay for them to stay there?

I will agree that jail is the answer when they stop paying to keep the lowlifes in jail on taxpayers money.  And don't go into a tirade about other tax scroungers such as the Royals.  I hate the Royal Family, and would just agree with you anyway, as I would with the other things you mentioned, but this is a debate about Capital Punishment, so lets keep it that way.

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« #61 : January 18, 2006, 06:18:03 PM »



It may make you sick but it's reality. People DON'T get the help they need, why is that? There are people commiting crimes just so they can go to jail and have a roof over their heads, it makes ME sick that they have to do that in this "fair and just society". flibbling farse.



i didnt think debate was about petty theiving so homeless people can go to jail and have a roof over there heads i THOUGHT it was about killing dirty cold blooded no remorse murderers.
i agree with icy all the way if it was a member of your family that was killed and the killer showed no remorse , even glee at his deed and only stayed in prison for 10 years because of good behavior youd want to rip there head off. 
   but because your sitting on the fence watching it happen to someone else you feel all rightous in saying that no one deserves death even for murder.  but if it were to happen to you the chances are you'd be agreeing with us.
     but its ok you can be the people who appear to the world as merciful and just and just hope that one day you dont get put in the position where *god forbid im not wishing this on anyone* someone close to you gets killed and you have to see the murder in your local high street 10 years later as if nothings happened looking for there next victiem.
your right we do have such an excellent justice system!

choose your own life for you live your own death


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« #62 : January 18, 2006, 07:08:32 PM »

Do you have any idea how to debate?  You don't talk about me, assuming my thoughts and opinions and having a nice little chat about me. 

Firstly, with the baby-rapists.  I KNOW its the judge who is to blame, but what I asked you is, do you think its right that this pig can get out in six years?  You could have a Son or Daughter by then.  But I'm sure you wouldn't mind him coming to get your children.  But sadly, thats what will happen to someone if he gets out. 

I understand people do murder, who have mental problems or in self defence.  But this is about murder, not manslaughter.  In self defence, its different.  And NO, do not twist that around by saying 'but how can you prove its in self defence, blah blah frigging blah'  Again, I mean PROVEN MURDER.

And people who murder with mental problems?  I'm sorry, but if someone's mental problems stretch to that extreme, they should be put to death anyway.

And War.

Did I say anything about the Iraq invasion.  I KNOW that was a frigging invasion, not a war, do not insult my intelligence.  I have told people for months and months that isn't a war, its an invasion.  I agree with you there.

The thing with soldiers is, its their job.  Its their job to protect their country, or get rid of dangerous parties.  They serve their country with their life, and to me, you cannot get a better person who would risk that for his or her people, and I applaud them for that.

A man who kills a child, a mother, a grandmother, a father...in cold blood.  Thats the kind of person I mean.  The kind who kills because of the sick pleasure they get from it, or the twisted thoughts they get from it.

Rotting in jail, sure, its fine, I agree its bad, its what they deserve.  But why should I, my boyfriend, my family, my friend, who work hard all their life....pay for them to stay there?

I will agree that jail is the answer when they stop paying to keep the lowlifes in jail on taxpayers money.  And don't go into a tirade about other tax scroungers such as the Royals.  I hate the Royal Family, and would just agree with you anyway, as I would with the other things you mentioned, but this is a debate about Capital Punishment, so lets keep it that way.
It's obvious I know how to debate. I do and will talk about you and assume. It's been done about me in this topic too, dry your eyes.

Firstly no I don't think it's right he can get out in 6 years. 6 years isn't nearly long enough and I've said nothing about agreeing on how long a sentence should be. Judges are out of touch with reality to be honest. There are a lot of reforms that need to be introduced, 6 years isn't enough, 20-30+ is, death is not an answer, and it never will be an answer.

How can I turn around and complain about evidence? I'll mention them for the third time - The birmingham 6, who would be dead before any evidence was brought forward on their innocence. That's reality. They where considered proven murderers.

Mad and bad, the mad should be put to death ? Right, I just can't take you seriously anymore, honestly.

As for war, The iraqi invasion still has casualties, it's war. I still don't get how invading the middle east is protecting Britain. That's a farse, and you know it. I know fine rightly who you mean. Remember that soldiers also kill in cold blood. You've already said you would want people who get a sick pleasure (i.e mad) should die, yet who are you to condemn anyone to death?

And yet again you bring taxation into it after complaining. And yet again you can't answer me. Your willing to let politicians, monarchy and other privilaged people spend your money foolishly but you aren't to let someone who commited a crime and may be sorry for it and want to help others (i.e tookie williams, who is now dead), live a terrible life in a cell, a life that isn't worthy of the word life. And not just you, Britain in general are willing to do this, where is the logic in that?

Lets see. Let a man live in jail, or let Tony blair decorate his best mates office with gold lined wallpaper. Hard choice, isn't it?  ::)

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« #63 : January 18, 2006, 07:14:36 PM »



It may make you sick but it's reality. People DON'T get the help they need, why is that? There are people commiting crimes just so they can go to jail and have a roof over their heads, it makes ME sick that they have to do that in this "fair and just society". flibbling farse.



i didnt think debate was about petty theiving so homeless people can go to jail and have a roof over there heads i THOUGHT it was about killing dirty cold blooded no remorse murderers.
i agree with icy all the way if it was a member of your family that was killed and the killer showed no remorse , even glee at his deed and only stayed in prison for 10 years because of good behavior youd want to rip there head off. 
   but because your sitting on the fence watching it happen to someone else you feel all rightous in saying that no one deserves death even for murder.  but if it were to happen to you the chances are you'd be agreeing with us.
     but its ok you can be the people who appear to the world as merciful and just and just hope that one day you dont get put in the position where *god forbid im not wishing this on anyone* someone close to you gets killed and you have to see the murder in your local high street 10 years later as if nothings happened looking for there next victiem.
your right we do have such an excellent justice system!
Okay then what defines a cold blooded murderer? How do we know they have no remorse when most killers do in the end show remorse. It may take years, it may take minutes after the incident.
If it was a member ofmy family that was killed, I wouldn't put that person under death since I'm superior to no one, and no one is superior to me, morally. Putting it simply, a member of my family (albeit not diect relation, still family) was killed by the Shankill butchers, I'm sure you've heard about them.
I don't appear to be merciful, everyone has a hint of spite and revenge in them, its human nature as far as I'm concerned, but I won't have a murderer killed to so I can have 5 minutes of revenge. It solves nothing and never will sovle anything.

People here have been murdered by the state (Police and British soldiers), paramilitaries(IRA, INLA, UVF, UDA), and general killers, I do have that extra edge on judging capital punishment because murder was an every day thing here for years, up untill 5-10 years ago.

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« #64 : January 18, 2006, 10:59:44 PM »

Firstly, double posting.  Do it again and I'll report you.

Secondly, did I say I was willing to pay tax for the Royal's, etc?  Why do you keep putting words into my mouth?  The topic is the Dealth Pentalty, and I'll discuss the Death Penalty.  I already said, if their was a topic on Tax, then I'd dicuss it all, but I won't, because its not part of the topic.

Your the one I can't take seriously anymore.  I'm not being funny here, but if someone has such a mental problem that they kill, thats no quality of life.  But thats another story, part of euthanasia even.

And back to Soldiers. 

Quote
As for war, The iraqi invasion still has casualties, it's war. I still don't get how invading the middle east is protecting Britain.

Again, assuming and putting words right into my mouth.  I said nothing about Iraq.  I actually agreed with you, but there you go again. 

Granted, some soldier's do kill in cold blood, which I think yes, is a crime that, in an ideal world, proven, worth the Death Penalty.

But the majority of Soldier's do their job right, they protect their country.  They have more bravery than almost everyone else, except perhaps Policemen and Ambulance men and Fire Fighters.

You try running a country without an Army.  Only one country I know of has no army, and thats Costa Rica.  But we live in Britain.  We need soldiers.  We have enemies all around the world, so we need protection.

You know full well what kind of people I mean when I say I want the Death Penalty.

I just hope you don't have children and loose one to a killer.  When a person looses a child, then you know real pain...and you know real desire for revenge.

And as Leafi said about people going into jail on purpose.  I know someone, well my mum does, who goes to jail after stealing, because he's safer and happier there!  Its a sad, sad place we live in when people WANT to go to jail.

Some deterrant that is.  No wonder people kill...why not, nothing happens to you.

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« #65 : January 19, 2006, 12:27:42 AM »

Why does this debate keep being hijacked by those who feel that they are on some kind of crusade? We are not discussing Northern Ireland, but the argument for and against the death penalty in specific types of murders. What makes you so especially qualified to judge, Jim/Phil or whoever you are? You grew up in Northern Ireland? Well bully for you. People the whole world over have grown up with violence as an integral part of their lives (including my family - my grandfather was blown up by an IRA bomb) but that does not give us the right or the inclination to posture as the oppressed and downtrodden. This is a question of the rights of victims of barbarous crime to demand justice for their loss, and an end to their pain. If delivering the death penalty to the monster who impaled three babies on garden railings after torturing them eases that pain for their parents, then I'm all for it. If executing a terrorist who places a nail bomb in a crowded restaurant full of innocent families relieves the world of one more murdering b**tard who rates his own radical beliefs above the rights of other human beings to live, then I'm all for it.
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« #66 : January 19, 2006, 01:06:52 AM »

Firstly, double posting.  Do it again and I'll report you.

Secondly, did I say I was willing to pay tax for the Royal's, etc?  Why do you keep putting words into my mouth?  The topic is the Dealth Pentalty, and I'll discuss the Death Penalty.  I already said, if their was a topic on Tax, then I'd dicuss it all, but I won't, because its not part of the topic.

Your the one I can't take seriously anymore.  I'm not being funny here, but if someone has such a mental problem that they kill, thats no quality of life.  But thats another story, part of euthanasia even.

And back to Soldiers. 

Quote
As for war, The iraqi invasion still has casualties, it's war. I still don't get how invading the middle east is protecting Britain.

Again, assuming and putting words right into my mouth.  I said nothing about Iraq.  I actually agreed with you, but there you go again. 

Granted, some soldier's do kill in cold blood, which I think yes, is a crime that, in an ideal world, proven, worth the Death Penalty.

But the majority of Soldier's do their job right, they protect their country.  They have more bravery than almost everyone else, except perhaps Policemen and Ambulance men and Fire Fighters.

You try running a country without an Army.  Only one country I know of has no army, and thats Costa Rica.  But we live in Britain.  We need soldiers.  We have enemies all around the world, so we need protection.

You know full well what kind of people I mean when I say I want the Death Penalty.

I just hope you don't have children and loose one to a killer.  When a person looses a child, then you know real pain...and you know real desire for revenge.

And as Leafi said about people going into jail on purpose.  I know someone, well my mum does, who goes to jail after stealing, because he's safer and happier there!  Its a sad, sad place we live in when people WANT to go to jail.

Some deterrant that is.  No wonder people kill...why not, nothing happens to you.
You'll report me? Golly gosh.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm assuming, and so far I'm not doing a half bad job of it either. Again, all my points still stand. Your running from my questions again. Tax was brought into this, I'm going to discuss it. Even you brought it into your arguements. But apparently you can't take me seriously, well it won't be me killing handicaps ;)

So you've just said that even soldiers should get the death penalty for killing in cold blood; yet what defines killing in cold blood and killing in the name of "justice and peace". Thousands have been killed by the British army over the years in many countries, weither or not it's considered in cold blood is usually irrelevant because nothing will happen anyway. They're protecting nothing. Without armies there would be no wars, remember ;)

Your going on about nothing happening to you if you kill, yet I don't find sitting in a small room for 10-20 years very fun. Again, I'm anti-death pentalty, but I'm pro-reforms on doing something more about people getting less time than they should.  :police:

I was going to make a second post to keep it clearer (and easier for me to read over) for the next reply, but I'll get reported  :'(

Quote
Why does this debate keep being hijacked by those who feel that they are on some kind of crusade? We are not discussing Northern Ireland, but the argument for and against the death penalty in specific types of murders. What makes you so especially qualified to judge, Jim/Phil or whoever you are? You grew up in Northern Ireland? Well bully for you. People the whole world over have grown up with violence as an integral part of their lives (including my family - my grandfather was blown up by an IRA bomb) but that does not give us the right or the inclination to posture as the oppressed and downtrodden. This is a question of the rights of victims of barbarous crime to demand justice for their loss, and an end to their pain. If delivering the death penalty to the monster who impaled three babies on garden railings after torturing them eases that pain for their parents, then I'm all for it. If executing a terrorist who places a nail bomb in a crowded restaurant full of innocent families relieves the world of one more murdering b**tard who rates his own radical beliefs above the rights of other human beings to live, then I'm all for it.
What in the of jesus are you talking about ? Crusade? Aye.
We are discussing capital punishment, and murder by the state; Northern Ireland has seen enough state murders over the past 40 years, it's part of the topic. I'm Jim by the way, Phil is a different person.
What makes me qualified to judge? I'm not judging people in the first place or wanting them to die.

Don't get sarky, I know fine rightly people the world over have grown up with violence, but did you have another countries soldiers walking on your streets? Probably not.

Right, this is what I can't understand with your post - If someone is killed, right, and you get the killer, right, how the flibble does it end the victims suffering if the killer is dead? It ends poo poo all, it just makes another families life just as hell. This is a question on the rights of victims of barbarous crimes, so deliverying the death pentalty to the monsters who collaborated with loyalist death squads and shot families in their bed answers things, according to you, also, I hope.

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« #67 : January 19, 2006, 02:27:24 AM »

As I said, this is not just about Northern Ireland. I find your assumptions about others patronising in the extreme - my family did come from a country in which occupying forces patrolled the streets, so don't assume that you are the only victim of war/unrest/oppression. I repeat, my grandfather was killed by an IRA bomb, not by state murder or soldiers, but by someone who arbitrarily decided his life was worth nothing. And you're wrong. Knowing those sh*ts were dead would ease the pain immensely. Knowing that some of them have been 'rehabilitated', freed from jail, and are now posing as victims themselves only makes me wish I could take matters into my own hands instead.
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« #68 : January 19, 2006, 03:01:48 AM »

 I fail to see how being a "good debater" as you two (Jim and Phil) is enough basis to allow you to stay in this place (yes allowed by the admins).

 It's very easy to be pedantic when discussing or putting your points across in an arrogant and despicable mannerm, and I certainly didn't know that coming from Northern Ireland entitled anyone to do so, it certainly isn't the only place where you can come across the crude realities of life and perhaps get to an understanding of why an eye for an eye doesn't make things better.

 I could debate every point that has been put across but at the end of the day it's down to the policy makers in every country to decide what is more convenient for their systems, that doesn't imply people in these countries stand for policies which can be fundamentally wrong or badly implemented, least of all it makes these policies better than any others.

 In the view of that issue can you bring back this British student killed in Thailand by sentencing to death these two Thai Fishermen? no most certainly not. Can you avoid them repeating the same deed on someone else? yes, you most definately can but it requires a responsible individual approach within society to acknowledge that sometimes death penalty is right and that sometimes it is not.

 I certainly can see the argument put forth by these judges, these two individuals knew the laws in Thailand punish these crimes heavily, and we all know that if they had money and influence they would bail their way out but we are not going to discuss the human factor which makes a system fail, simply if you know there are rules, even if you don't like them once you break them you are liable to have forfeited your right to anything.

 This is why in days gone by people overrode the system and lynched (something still practiced where I come from).

 Let's not forget that giving a cannibal forks doesn't make them more civilized and certainly pretending that some people understand the basics of human integrity and dignity and respect for others is far fetched, we are not all equals, some people are more basic or more complex and some have a high regard for life and some simply don't, so a single rule for all is flawed. Who is to judge who has rights or who doesn't is not up to me or a single person but the collective can certainly see when something stinks in Denmark and when it doesn't, that is why lynching still exists.

 You can come back and put on your show folks I just had to say it since I find it ludicrous that some people here can be kept around on the basis of 'good arguments'.

 This is me out.
« : January 19, 2006, 03:04:51 AM Hÿllyn »
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« #69 : January 19, 2006, 03:40:36 AM »

I haven't given my opinion on the death penalty.

I also don't recall mentioning the IRA myself....I merely mentioned an atrocity carried out by the British Army in Norhern Ireland, because Icy made several comments about the British Army.

I dont speak on behalf of Jim, and I'm not prepared to scroll through his posts to see where he has mentioned the IRA.

So, if you're saying I should be banned because my opinion (which hasnt been overtly given once in this topic) apparently conflicts with yours...can I ask why?



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« #70 : January 19, 2006, 05:42:46 AM »

I only reffered to the British Army because I have no education in the IRA or any of Ireland's history, or present, at all.  I am half Irish but hey, I'm Welsh first  :P  If I did know anything about Ireland then perhaps I would have included them.


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« #71 : January 19, 2006, 12:07:59 PM »

flibble it, cant be bothered anymore.
« : January 19, 2006, 09:12:07 PM Jim »

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« #72 : January 21, 2006, 04:52:44 AM »

I fail to see how being a "good debater" as you two (Jim and Phil) is enough basis to allow you to stay in this place (yes allowed by the admins).

  You can come back and put on your show folks I just had to say it since I find it ludicrous that some people here can be kept around on the basis of 'good arguments'.    This is me out.

there are many here that argue! 

Ppl will be banned for being abusive, offensive, for bulling etc. but they wont be banned for arguing :(    good or not (you misquote or misunderstand )... otherwise we;d be banning everyone who posts on this board!!!


that said, this topic needs some timeout...

:X:
« : January 21, 2006, 05:05:45 AM Elril Galia »



All Keeps Well for those who Wait. Nai tiruvantel ar varyuvantel i Valar tielyanna nu Vilya
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