Northern Ireland?

[Taurendil]

Well, ‘those people’, if you mean people of Iraq, weren’t that free. According to the recent studies, done by BBC as far as I know, most of them are for Americans and not for Saddam. Another question is that this invasion may not bring any improvements to Iraq. The degree of freedom is increased, but can this people jump from dictatorship to democracy so easily through direct interference of other countries. Maybe things should go in their usual way gradually, not abruptly. Though this way maybe very difficult and take much time.
Hunting down the terrorists is applicable to cases where they do not have the help of the government. This does refer to Iraq. In Afghanistan the rulers were  half-terrorist themselves. Getting spies and operatives into the organisations is not easy in this case and not efficient.

[Phil]

In Afghanistan the rulers were  half-terrorist themselves

Ahh, yes....those US-established rulers?

[Taurendil]

Doesn't matter who established them. They were a real menace to every man in the world. And now that terrorists' lair is destroyed by the UK and US.
 

[Phil]

aye ok

[Jim]

Well, ‘those people’, if you mean people of Iraq, weren’t that free. According to the recent studies, done by BBC as far as I know, most of them are for Americans and not for Saddam. Another question is that this invasion may not bring any improvements to Iraq. The degree of freedom is increased, but can this people jump from dictatorship to democracy so easily through direct interference of other countries. Maybe things should go in their usual way gradually, not abruptly. Though this way maybe very difficult and take much time.
Hunting down the terrorists is applicable to cases where they do not have the help of the government. This does refer to Iraq. In Afghanistan the rulers were  half-terrorist themselves. Getting spies and operatives into the organisations is not easy in this case and not efficient.

What is free? The BBC probably isn't the best source to take polls from to form your opinion, they only tell what they want the public to know. For example in Northern Ireland an IRA man crashed into 3 children, according to the BBC. The truth was he was shot, while driving by a British soldier, and was dead by the time he crashed.

The degree of freedom has increased? Sorry, no, the degree of Western corporate culture has and will increase. America has it's fingers in a lot of pies in the middle east, whatever is the "evil" is usually in some way created or helped by America.

How do you stop terrorists? You get your country, your army, and your western culture out of their country and let them be, let's see how many terrorists attacks there are then  They aren't rebels without a cause, regardless of what Tony Blair, Jack Straw, George Bush, Fox news or the BBC will tell you.

[Taurendil]

The degree of freedom in Iraq IS increased. Under Saddam’s rule there was no opposition; loads of people were killed without any justice only because they didn’t agree with the government.  Not to mention freedom of speech, opportunity to elect and to know the truth. Another question is whether invasion could bring any improvement, I mean whether people of Iraq are ready to democracy and freedom. 

How do you stop terrorists? You get your country, your army, and your western culture out of their country and let them be, let's see how many terrorists attacks there are then.

 
Highly probable. But let’s imagine that all the West influence was drawn back from the countries in question. I do not think that it would stop the attacks now, it is too late. The terrorists are unlikely to put aside their jihad, which by the way is criticised by Islam. They have now belonging to a certain country or nationality; their aim is to destroy the Western countries as may be seen in their menaces. 
By the way, if you do not trust the BBC what is the news you trust?

[Jim]

The freedom of Iraq has only increased as Americas pockets increase. If you think about it, you don't have much freedom of speech in Britain or America, either. Right, it's more than what Iraq had, but it's still not much. You can still be held without trail in America and be punished under treason in both countries for speaking out and going over the limit of your average anti war demonstration. Labour MPs that speak out against the Government are removed from the party all toghether. Aye, freedom of speech. The opportunity to elect doesnt stretch far, in England you only get a choice of 3 parties (sometimes 2), all of which are bald aging middle class men with similar policies, not much choice, and do you honestly believe both governments give out the truth, and all of the truth? Ofcourse they dont.

Do you know what a Jihad is? I doubt you know the full extent of it to be honest. Simply put, there is nothing to attack if you are not there. They aren't out to destroy all western culture, thats bollocks. Palestinian Jihad isn't out to destroy western culture, Al Qaeda aren't even an organisation, never mind having a common jihad. It's still as simple as; Take your guns, armies, and culture out of their countries, and you won't have another 9/11 or london bomb. Let the Palestinians deal with Israel in their own war, without America backing Israel because of the jewish influence on the American government.

I don't trust the BBC, I don't trust any channel. I read news from all sorts of sources, and even have al jazeera, to establish my views. flibble ya BBC polls, they mean nowt.

[Edge]

democracy and freedom.

Indoctrinated buzzwords.....nothing more.

Ready for Democracy and freedom? Democracy is not the living embodiment of freedom, and don't speak like it is; other countries are the way they are for a reason, be it tradition, religion, law, economics, war, famine, revolution or any number of different things.....point is, we've no right to be changing anything about another country unless it is justified, both legally and morally. You're making a sweeping generalisation like "maybe the people aren't ready for democracy and freedom" when in reality, it's the fact that the West have as they and I see it "conquered" Iraq that this fight still goes on- not that they aren't "ready to be free" that's bull excrement, to be totally honest.

The people of the Middle East aren't ready to have their countries conquered by Western powers again, and that is the source of a whole lot of tension and fear, fear that can be dangerous when charismatic leaders use it to wield power and create a bloodlust.....you imagine that France mobilised an army, and then conquered Poland- wouldn't their neighbouring countries get just a tad worried? Would it not send an uproar of epic proportions up the EU? Yep, it would- same situation, same difference. People hide behind the fact that it was Saddam ruling Iraq, but it could have been Joe Stalin himself sitting ruling the country with Pol Pot as his intern ( ) and it still wouldn't make a shred of difference to the feeling of the ME.....the feeling that America is conquering neighbour Muslim states and is at war with Islam.....


Too much Captain America and Gi Joe is bad for you- the sooner people realise that "Freedom and Democracy" are buzzwords of American political spin the better- otherwise they'll all be fooled.

[Taurendil]

All right then, let’s hope we shall live to see the days when countries won’t interfere with each other’s affairs and peoples of every country will live in what way seems best to them.

P.S. Didn’t know western mass media are so untrustworthy. What to say of here where I live  ; I thought in England mass media are the most independent of government.

[Phil]

It's not that they're not independent of govt - it's just that they'll put across the P.O.V that's representative of the nation....for example, they'll refer to the IRA as 'terrorists'...rather than something like 'volunteers.' If you get what I mean.

[Taurendil]

But there must be some that give real information without emotions, I mean just giving the facts, leaving to  audience to make its own conclusion.

[Jim]

All right then, let’s hope we shall live to see the days when countries won’t interfere with each other’s affairs and peoples of every country will live in what way seems best to them.

P.S. Didn’t know western mass media are so untrustworthy. What to say of here where I live  cry ; I thought in England mass media are the most independent of government.

Don't be sarcastic, it's uncalled for.

We won't see the day countries dont interfere with each other, and it's still not an excuse to invade another country illegally, and back other countries the size of wales with a nuclear arsenal to rival the past soviet union. ...i wonder who that could be?.......[/i]. This isn't a war on the middle east, it's a war on religion, and the religious stronghold happens to be in the middle east. It's all for profit. The reality of it is "terrorists" kill for god apparently, but doesn't george bush speak to god on a regular basis over a cup of tea on how to rid the world of these terrorists who want to destroy our democracy and complete freedom? What a flibbling farse.

Also, the BBC will label the IRA terrorists, not volunteers, as Phil said. But they're a recognised paramilitary organisation, who have established time and time again why they are there. That's not terrorism. They're soldiers. They may not be in an "official" army, but soldiers all the same.

[Taurendil]

Also, the BBC will label the IRA terrorists, not volunteers, as Phil said. But they're a recognised paramilitary organisation, who have established time and time again why they are there. That's not terrorism. They're soldiers. They may not be in an "official" army, but soldiers all the same.

I don't deny that. I imagine the IRA as a group of partisans.
What about situation in Gibraltar? Is it comparable with N. Ireland?

[Jim]

I can't say much about that situation, I don't know anything about it to be honest so I'll say what I do know (and its not to be quoted untill I read further into it please).

There are a lot of British in Gib, right, but where in Northern Ireland, British (ulster scots) are not the majority, I think it's a different situation in Gib where they are the majority, and it also rakes in Spain a lot of cash through tourism, you'd have to be crazy to go on holiday for 2 weeks to Belfast.

[Taurendil]

Not quoting, but giving the facts. The majority of population is not at all British. There are such ethic groups: Spanish, Italian, English, Maltese, Portuguese, German, North Africans. In referendums held in 1967 and 2002, Gibraltarians ignored Spanish pressure and voted overwhelmingly to remain a British dependency. On both occasions well over 95 percent of voters said they wanted to remain British; on the latter occasion, the percentage was 98.97 percent. And this is despite the fact that Great Britain’s government accepted the principle of joint sovereignty between the United Kingdom and Spain.

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