Northern Ireland?

[Jim]

I know full well about that referendum. That very referendum you speak of was boycotted by Republicans - because the referendum was only held in the North, and not the south. So in essence, the referendum vote was decided by the minority Unionist population of Ireland, because only 1% of Nationalists and Republicans took part. The turn-out was 57% - hardly what I'd call a favourable electorate.

And I don't think those Unionists would take kindly to calling them Irish.

And by the way, it was only in the Downing Street Declaration of 1993 that the British government and Irish governemt agreed it was the principle of consent that was the best way foward - initiated finally by the Good Friday Agreement of 1998.

I am affraid that is simply not true. The turnout was 58% for a start and vote was 99% in favour of staying in the UK that means 58% of the people of Ireland (at least) wanted to stay in the UK. That is a clear majority and therefore a mandate to stay in the UK.

The population of Northern Ireland (the people concerned) had the opportunity to vote, and whether you like it or not a majority of the people living in Northern Ireland decided to stay in the UK. How can you argue with that?
(And not only that it was the people of Northern Ireland, not the British, that wanted to stay in the UK back in 1922.)

Why should the people in the Republic of Ireland get a say in what we do in the United Kingdom? They are a completely separate country as they wanted (and was agreed in 1922) so it's absolutely nothing to do with them what thepeople in Northern Ireland want (similarly, the French don't get a vote on whether Quebec want to leave Canada).

Phil: I'm doing a pretty good job of discussing it without mentioning religion. (And I only mentioned the Pope as an interesting fact as well as a reply to Elfy saying that we took Ireland but we were told by Pope.)

And what about within the next 10 years or less? The nationalist/catholic community is growingrapidly compared to the unionist/protestant community and has been for a while now. The "people of Northern Ireland" backin 1922 called themselves British, not Northern Irish. They wave a union jack and a scottish flag, not an Irish one or a Northern Irish one. The people in the Republic of Ireland should get a say in what goes on in Northern Ireland because they're still involved. I'm Irish with a dual citizenship, making me both British, and Irish. Sinn Fein are the largest all Ireland party, that's both the Republic and the North, so yes, it has something to do with them.

You say that the Republic shouldn't have a say, or you question why they do, yet people in Northern Ireland have no say on who is elected into your British parliament, rather we get representatives with thier own biggoted secterian views. Hardly much for being British, is it?

If 58% had aturn out with 99% wanting to stay in the UK, how many of them where nationalists or even had a say? It hasn't been untill the past 30 odd years nationalists even had civil rights never mind a choice on being part of the UK.

[Mojo Toner]

Easy way to settle this ---> hold another vote (in ireland)

[Jim]

Not everyone votes regardless of thier opinion. The only true way to know would be to force a vote, which isn't going to happen.

Even at that, do you think unionists would cease if there was a united Ireland? Do you think the republicans would cease if the vote said to stay in the UK? Ofcourse not. There's too many ideals out there to have it as black and white as that.

[Mojo Toner]

Not everyone votes regardless of thier opinion. The only true way to know would be to force a vote, which isn't going to happen.

Even at that, do you think unionists would cease if there was a united Ireland? Do you think the republicans would cease if the vote said to stay in the UK? Ofcourse not. There's too many ideals out there to have it as black and white as that.

tru, this is a bit like the should we have gone to war arguement. There is no answers

[Mithrandir]

And what about within the next 10 years or less? The nationalist/catholic community is growingrapidly compared to the unionist/protestant community and has been for a while now. The "people of Northern Ireland" backin 1922 called themselves British, not Northern Irish. They wave a union jack and a scottish flag, not an Irish one or a Northern Irish one. The people in the Republic of Ireland should get a say in what goes on in Northern Ireland because they're still involved. I'm Irish with a dual citizenship, making me both British, and Irish. Sinn Fein are the largest all Ireland party, that's both the Republic and the North, so yes, it has something to do with them.

You say that the Republic shouldn't have a say, or you question why they do, yet people in Northern Ireland have no say on who is elected into your British parliament, rather we get representatives with thier own biggoted secterian views. Hardly much for being British, is it?

If 58% had aturn out with 99% wanting to stay in the UK, how many of them where nationalists or even had a say? It hasn't been untill the past 30 odd years nationalists even had civil rights never mind a choice on being part of the UK.

Yes I have to admit that the Republican movement is growing (as Unionists are more often older), but they are still not a majority according to a poll by Northern Ireland Life and Times where 38% of people said they were Unionist, but only 24% said they were Republicans/Nationalist (2003).

Yes Sinn Féin are the largest all-Ireland party, but the Green party are the largest all-European party, so should we get a say in European countries' referenda?

I still think a vote is the way to go - you can't argue with one. And if people don't turn out then that's their problem, really.

You say that Northern Ireland has a democratic deficit, but that is no fault but your own. The main parties used to stand in Northern Ireland until the 60s but because they started doing so poorly they stopped putting up candidates. The Conservative Party usually put up about 3 or 4 candidates and they come about 5th every time.
And, of course, the Unionist parties are off-shoots of the Conservative Party (their official name is the Conservative and Unionist Party, afterall), and the LibDems endorse the Alliance.

And, if you want to talk about democratic deficits, I suggest you come to Sussex (and many places in the South) where thousands of people could vote Liberal Democratics and we still get a Conservative MP with a large majority (same with the Liberal Democrats in Cornwall and with Labour in many parts of the north).

May I ask, Jim, are you religious?

[Jim]

You keep bringing statistics into it, but to be quite honest they're piss, they aren't how people think regardless of how many newspapers and documents tell you. You don't have to be a nationalist to want a united Ireland, and you don't have to be a unionist to want to keep direct rule, but you may not say anything untill the time would come.

Sinn Féin and the Green party are two very very different parties with different goals and agendas in the first place. Although it's not thier only objective, Sinn Féin are ultimately out to bring around a peace process and hopefully a united Ireland, not to make sure animals are being treated fairly.

A vote isn't the way to go. As far as republicans see it, Ireland is Irish land, not British, and they will always have that view, and they have every right to have that view. Unionists are afraid they will get the same treatment nationalists got living in the North under a united Ireland, but it's not true and the only reason protestants "died out" of the south is because you had to be a catholic to marry a catholic, so they converted, and as you should know, Ireland was dominated by the word of the vatican.

Remember that up untill the 70s-80s the nationalist side didn't get much of choice in who was elected anywhere, and the assembly was ran entirely of unionists, so no, it's not our fault, due to the lack of Civil rights of those times. Our politics are dominated by the partition, and nothing but that, very few people vote for policies, which is the silliest thing someone can do, especially if voting for the DUP and being working class. But with another country ruling this side of Ireland, can you blame them? It's not a normal society and it's not normal political grounds where like in England you can vote purely on policies.

Am I religious? No. What does that have to do with it though?

[Blaen]

Totally agree with you about statistics Jim. Who was it who said "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics"?

[Mojo Toner]

89% of statistics are not true. (but is this one true?)

[Mithrandir]

I think that quote is usually attributed to Benjamin Disraeli.

You're only bashing the statistics because you don't agree with them. If I had said "85% of the population of Northern Ireland want to re-unite with the Republic of Ireland" you would've soon backed it up.

[Phil]

I still think a vote is the way to go - you can't argue with one. And if people don't turn out then that's their problem, really.

So once a vote is placed, the book is closed and placed back on the bookshelf?

It seems you're quite sympathetic to Unionism, an opinion is an opinion. Tell me, have you any connections or ties with the North of Ireland, have you spent long periods of time in the region?

[Jim]

I think that quote is usually attributed to Benjamin Disraeli.

You're only bashing the statistics because you don't agree with them. If I had said "85% of the population of Northern Ireland want to re-unite with the Republic of Ireland" you would've soon backed it up.

Balls I would have, I'd have said it was bollocks regardless. It's not a matter of statistics, they don't represent me or northern ireland.

[Lessa]

Jim watch the language please

Lessa

[Gollum]

Balls I would have, I'd have said it was bollocks regardless. It's not a matter of statistics, they don't represent me or northern ireland.

Well what do they represent, these apparently entirely useless and unrepresentative statistics?

[Edge]

Define Northern Irish terrorism....

One who kills many others

Every government on this Earth is accountable for that in that case friend.

Under that logic, one could define the Samurai, the Romans, the Greeks/Macedonians, the Israelis, the Palestinians, the British, the Irish, the French, the Germans, the Prussians, the Americans, the South Americans, the Chinese, the Balkan, the Italians, and just about any nation that have ever gone to war as a terrorist.

In my logic however, a Terrorist is someone who kills wrecklessly, without cause, without a legitimate reason and without belief. That my friend, is where an argument about Northern Ireland can get very ugly.

LEGEND-

• Republican- A person/group of people that believe in the unity of Ireland, through democracy or force if necessary. This is the more militant group.
• Nationalist- General term for a person/group who is a part of the predominantly Catholic social sect of Northern Ireland.
• Loyalist- A person/group of people that believe in the Union of NI and Britain and in loyalty to the Queen of England. This group is hardline and militant mainly.
• Unionist- General term for a person/group that believe in the Union of Britain and NI and in loyalty to the Queen. They are generally the more upper class, political sect.

Correct me if my terms are wrong please.


Dealing with the extremes here, on the one side, there is the Republican Movement (IRA), who historically and factually have been fighting for the better part of a century on and off to separate Ireland from British rule, to promote civil rights our people never had, and to fight the British in a guerilla war that some thought could never end- some still do, their power has waned and there are several offshoots, each claiming to be the official wing of the IRA, however- the main wing of the IRA are the group that have decommissioned it's arms.

Then there are the Loyalists, who historically were the faction that were created to counter the Republican movement, and were around and fighting for their cause back in the days of the rising, the negotiations for home rule and up to the separation of the six counties from the rest of Ireland, they sometimes included off duty policemen, B specials, and have allegedly worked together with the British Government in collusion in a series of murders. Now, the most visible paramilitaries, they are visually the main criminal element of Unionism/Loyalism, dealing in such crimes as Drug Dealing, Prostitution, racketeering, Smuggling and gang-warfare.


In Northern Ireland, and having lived under a very self-imposed non-religious and objective view from I was 15, I have came to realise over the years just how much our people were supressed, opressed and made to look like animals over the years from the separation onwards. I tried to block out the conflict, the fear and tried to remain objective- however, all I have to do is say my address and I'll be judged on the spot not on who I am, but on where I'm from- fear unfortunately is the biggest winner of them all in our country.


The Free State had it fine, sure, it did have a civil war, and it was bloody, but out of the ashes, Eamonn DeValera created the Irish Republic, letting Michael Collins take the fall for the separation and washing his hands of us for many years. The Republic grew in Economic and political strength,

Throughout that time, the North was right up until the late 60s an unfair Unionist stronghold where Northern Irish politicians, British by their own desire were the rulers of the country while we had no voice. Northern Ireland's politicians such as James Craig (Lord Craigavon as he was known.) historically were proponants of the Union, and as such were treated well by the British goivernment, who recognised their mandates over all others. Unionists were allowed to vote (and were given the votes of their workers if they owned a business.) and local constituancies were drawn up according to how many Unionist votes they could squeeze out of an area, effectively rigging all democratic votes in a process known as Gerrymandering.


The one thing the IRA will be remembered for by the world is for "Terrorism" but that is mainly because they have been the British Government's constant thorn for as long as they can remember.....what they should be remembered for is the fact that they won our people the right to vote- the IRA's armed campaign of the 60's and 70's along with the NICRA association won our people the right to vote fairly and democratically as to whom our elected representatives are....."One Man One Vote" became a reality, and it was through the gun and the ballot box that we got there.


Our community have slowly and surely risen to a point now where the divide between sects is almost 50-50, effectively meaning that we have an equal say in this country's governance. This has been a slow and difficult process, with politicians at every turn trying to block us from getting there. People like Ian Paisley, the most hardline politician the country has ever known, who, since rising to power as the leader of the strongest Unionist party last year, has done his utmost to throw a spanner in the works of devolved government.



For years, ever since the Good Friday Agreement, the day our country could look up and see a future, the Democratic Unionist party hid behind the looming shadow of the IRA.....4-6 different Loyalist groups were and have been active over the past 10 or so years, but they always hid behind the IRA.....the UVF, LVF, UFF, Red Hand Commando and the UDA have all been almost fully functional over these long years, and the world saw the few weeks after IRA decommissioning took place, just how much Loyalism tried to cling on to that frail argument- by venting on the police and their own people- with turf wars and rival factions shooting each other across Loyalism.


To read more on our sordid politics, try this Wikipedia on Northern Ireland- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_and_politics_of_Northern_Ireland

Anyway, enough of that backdrop post, because there's debate here that I didn't realise was there that I want into;


SIDENOTE: Religion is very much a part of this debate, and I refuse point blank to leave it out, as the Catholic/Protestant divide in Northern Ireland is part of the problem, and part of the bitterness and hatred felt by our respective communities. Personally, I could give a s[CENSORED]t what Diety, what gods, what doctrine people believe in personally, however, in the context of our country- wether or not you like it, it is a severe part of the debate.

Yes I have to admit that the Republican movement is growing (as Unionists are more often older), but they are still not a majority according to a poll by Northern Ireland Life and Times where 38% of people said they were Unionist, but only 24% said they were Republicans/Nationalist (2003).

Dude, why not look up the official figures, rather than from a poll from a commission that I for one as citizen of Northern Ireland,  have never heard of, nor was asked to take part in. The actual statistic is very clost to 50-50, something in the region of about 52%-48% or somesuch, I'm not about to look for the stats, but hey.

Well what do they represent, these apparently entirely useless and unrepresentative statistics?

The statistics you've brought to the table do not represent the view of every citizen on both sides, merely a selective group, a poll conducted with any number of people such as maybe say 1000, or maybe 10,000, possibly even 100,000.....considering the fact that there are however according to British Government estimate statistics approximately 1,710,300 people living here, and so those stats may well be inherently flawed in a general debate on the general population of this country, especially one so radically divided.



The political situation in Northern Ireland in terms of voting has been changed drastically over the past 30-40 years. Up to the 60s, the Nationalist (mainly Catholic) Community could not vote unless they were middle-upper class, which was such a rarity thanks to job bigotry that our community were mainly working class secondary industry workers, with no vote. If they could vote, the process of Gerrymandering made the vote practically useless, as Gerrymandering destroyed the Nationalist vote unfairly. Now, knowing this, the British set up a referendum in the early times, knowing well that the Nationalist vote would be minimum. That one was a resounding no, however, this is a very different country to what it was 40-100 years ago.....our people are treated as such- people, we have equal workplace opportunities, equal employment, cross community bodies and of course much more contact with each other.....which is great. The divide is close to 50-50, and our politicians have risen to a point of power where they can now rival the Unionist dominated political system now for the first time ever. Now, with that in mind, if there was a fair, democratic reforrendum, that the Irish people and Government and British Government agreed to, I think the outcome would be interesting indeed.


Indeed, I remember someone I know who is Nationalist living near a Loyalist area saying to me a few weeks ago that a canvasser for the DUP was talking to him about his vote, and told him- and I quote "We're canvassing for as much votes as we can, those "T[CENSORED]g  B[CENSORED]s" are outbreeding us."


These are interesting times we live in, and we are fortunate to be the youth that are living in such times- if I was 10 years older, things would be a whole lot different for me. The very fact that we are coming of age as our devolved Government is on it's way to being established for good can only mean good things for all of us, both sides.

Personally, I've no beef with the British people by the way, some of my best friends are from England, Scotland and Wales, it's squarely with the Loyalist and Unionist politicians of the past that allowed this shocking scenario that is our history to spiral for the past 40+ years.

Thank you.

[Jim]

Good craic

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