Northern Ireland?

[Mojo Toner]

The IRA army council has never, ever ordered the blatent killing of civillians. It just so happens that those civillians were in the wrong place, at the wrong time.

I'm not saying that they ordered the direct killings but surely when there planning blow something up, they relise theres gunna b people around.

[Jim]

Define Northern Irish terrorism....

One who kills many others

The British Army killed many, are they terrorists?

As the voting has appears unanimous for this topic, rather than against it, I am leaving this thread open for discussion.
Constructive discussion, NO ABUSE.

Any bad behaviour, or upset, etc will NOT be tolerated, and will cause this thread to be locked/deleted PERMANENTLY.

You have been warned.

There hasn't been any abuse yet and it won't be happening from me of Phil, no need for babysitting 

I'm not saying that they ordered the direct killings but surely when there planning blow something up, they relise theres gunna b people around.

The Irish Republican Army (the legitimate army of Ireland) almost always gave warnings to thier bombs, the authorities did not always take notice, which has all sorts of benefits to the British war machine from propaganda to outright hatred to Irish which was quite obvious at the time, even from experiences from my own family living in England at the time.



Leave Ireland for the Irish, not for Britain, not for Rome.

[Lessa]

I presume by the comment ''not for rome'' you mean the Roam Catholic church?

Please leave the church out of this discussion as religion is a whole other very sensitive discussion.

Lessa

[Jim]

That's going to be a bit hard since the situation here is based on religion to a very big extent, isn't it 

No ones forced to read anything, religion is a huge factor in the problems where I live, it needs to be discussed.

[Mojo Toner]

Define Northern Irish terrorism....

One who kills many others

The British Army killed many, are they terrorists?

In some peoples eyes yes.

[Elfy]

Firstly - I'm not Irish (well not much) so apologies if I get anything wrong.

Compared to some groups, I do not consider the IRA to be terrorists, I agree with Phil in that they are freedom fighters. They fought for THEIR country that WE took from them and they cannot be blamed for doing that. They did not deliberately target civilians UNLIKE Al Qaeda. I think that is the fundamental definition of terrorism, and in my eyes the IRA do not fit that. Al Qaeda do, they are pure evil and are enjoying the fear and suffering they are causing, without any genuine motive behind their cause.

What exactly is the reason that the British government cannot give Northern Ireland back to the people it belongs to? Probably nothing more than stubbornness and red tape. It's pathetic.

[Mithrandir]

What do you mean leave Ireland for the Irish? The Irish people of Northern Ireland voted in favour of staying part of the United Kingdom.

Don't try and make out that Great Britain is somehow repressing Ireland by "keeping hold" of Northern Ireland because twice (when the Republic of Ireland was ceded and in the referendum in 1973 in which the options were "Do you want Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom?" and "Do you want Northern Ireland to be joined with the Republic of Ireland, outside of the United Kingdom?") to leave the UK, and both times decided to stay.

Personally I don't mind have any attachment to Northern Ireland, and I think the most important thing is that the people of Northern Ireland decide where they want to be. (Which they have done.)

And on the issue of religion, if I remember rightly it was actually a Pope that told the English King (Henry II) in 1150-something to invade Ireland - and it was that which effectively started English (and later British) rule of Ireland.

[Phil]

I know full well about that referendum. That very referendum you speak of was boycotted by Republicans - because the referendum was only held in the North, and not the south. So in essence, the referendum vote was decided by the minority Unionist population of Ireland, because only 1% of Nationalists and Republicans took part. The turn-out was 57% - hardly what I'd call a favourable electorate.

And I don't think those Unionists would take kindly to calling them Irish.

And by the way, it was only in the Downing Street Declaration of 1993 that the British government and Irish governemt agreed it was the principle of consent that was the best way foward - initiated finally by the Good Friday Agreement of 1998.

[Blaen]

The problem in Northern Island cannot be resolved easily. A unified Irish republic would not be in the interests of all people in Northern Ireland, but then neither would Ireland remaining part of the UK be in everyones interests either. I really can't say much more without getting on to religion and it appears I'm not allowed to talk about it incase I offend anyone . The problem is is that religion is a big factor in this debate and without being able to discuss it I really can't say much more. A united Ireland would be ideal in ideal circumstances but the circumstances are far from ideal....If that makes any sense

[Phil]

Don't worry about religion, feel free to talk about it. Religion is a serious aspect in Northern Ireland, and the conflict simply cannot be discussed without it. Otherwise, this topic should be locked immediately, because you can't talk about Northern Ireland without bringing religion into it....religion created the conflicts in Northern ireland.

To be honest it's just the admins trying to police myself and Jim, as they know we've alot to say on the issue.

[Jim]

What do you mean leave Ireland for the Irish? The Irish people of Northern Ireland voted in favour of staying part of the United Kingdom.

Don't try and make out that Great Britain is somehow repressing Ireland by "keeping hold" of Northern Ireland because twice (when the Republic of Ireland was ceded and in the referendum in 1973 in which the options were "Do you want Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom?" and "Do you want Northern Ireland to be joined with the Republic of Ireland, outside of the United Kingdom?") to leave the UK, and both times decided to stay.

Personally I don't mind have any attachment to Northern Ireland, and I think the most important thing is that the people of Northern Ireland decide where they want to be. (Which they have done.)

And on the issue of religion, if I remember rightly it was actually a Pope that told the English King (Henry II) in 1150-something to invade Ireland - and it was that which effectively started English (and later British) rule of Ireland.

The Irish people of Northern Ireland, i.e nationalists want a united Ireland, they didn't ever vote to stay part of the united kingdom.

Great Britain isn't repressing Ireland, rather it is the unionists that are holding back the future waiting for the seas to part. They refuse to speak to nationalists and through the years, the DUP especially have been 100% unco-operative. If Sinn Fein had of been this unco-operative they would have been left out of talks. But no, the people of Northern Ireland haven't decided anything.

[Mithrandir]

I know full well about that referendum. That very referendum you speak of was boycotted by Republicans - because the referendum was only held in the North, and not the south. So in essence, the referendum vote was decided by the minority Unionist population of Ireland, because only 1% of Nationalists and Republicans took part. The turn-out was 57% - hardly what I'd call a favourable electorate.

And I don't think those Unionists would take kindly to calling them Irish.

And by the way, it was only in the Downing Street Declaration of 1993 that the British government and Irish governemt agreed it was the principle of consent that was the best way foward - initiated finally by the Good Friday Agreement of 1998.

I am affraid that is simply not true. The turnout was 58% for a start and vote was 99% in favour of staying in the UK that means 58% of the people of Ireland (at least) wanted to stay in the UK. That is a clear majority and therefore a mandate to stay in the UK.

The population of Northern Ireland (the people concerned) had the opportunity to vote, and whether you like it or not a majority of the people living in Northern Ireland decided to stay in the UK. How can you argue with that?
(And not only that it was the people of Northern Ireland, not the British, that wanted to stay in the UK back in 1922.)

Why should the people in the Republic of Ireland get a say in what we do in the United Kingdom? They are a completely separate country as they wanted (and was agreed in 1922) so it's absolutely nothing to do with them what thepeople in Northern Ireland want (similarly, the French don't get a vote on whether Quebec want to leave Canada).

Phil: I'm doing a pretty good job of discussing it without mentioning religion. (And I only mentioned the Pope as an interesting fact as well as a reply to Elfy saying that we took Ireland but we were told by Pope.)

[Blaen]

Well the problem is the conflict between Catholics and Protestants. Typically Loyalists are protestant and Republicans are catholic (That's not always the case I admit but I'm just talking generally). Most would rather resolve their differences peacefully but there is discontent with the government and there are some people who go to extremes. Some people would disagree with the term extreme but I would always consider the killing of anyone extreme, whether they be soldier or civilian. The IRA is one group but they are not the only group who are willing to kill for what they believe in and they are definately not the nastiest. It appears that though all religions preach love they seem to beget violence. I hope that the situation if Northern Ireland can be resolved without anymore bloodshed and the fact that the IRA has apparently dismantled it's weapons is a good thing.

And forgive me If I'm ignorant but isn't missing out religion like missing out a portion of the arguement? Like writing all the Pros but not the Cons? :|

[Mithrandir]

Well I wouldn't say religion is fundamental to the argument. I would say it's a general characteristic associated with the two sides.

Religion should be left out of it - all religions are a load of rubbish anyway.

[Blaen]

I wouldn't say fundemental but you can't rule it out as part of the problem entirely.

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