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« #45 : April 13, 2005, 08:25:55 AM »

Precisely what I said - they wouldn't pull the plug, basically because of his teachings. The Pope was very pro-life.
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« #46 : April 13, 2005, 05:14:14 PM »

It's good (in my opinion) that he was essentially pro-life, but I would hope that someone would have the sense to pull the plug if there was no brain activity (as in no independent breathing.) 

"God is the Lord, of angels, and of men-and of elves."-J.R.R. Tolkien

And I shall be telling this with a sigh
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Two roads diverged in a wood and I,
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« #47 : April 14, 2005, 11:44:24 PM »

But isn't it horrible, if other people decide in the end if you live or die. I would want to take that decison on my own. In Germany people can make a living will, so there will be no questions as to what measures are still allowed to be taken.

As far as Euthenasia goes. I think if I had an illness and docters would tell me there is no hope left. It would be nice, to gather family and friends, say goodbye and die silently slipping away because somone who understands what he is doing is giving you the right overdose of something.

This sounds much more compasionate to me then dying in agony, possibly alone, because no one could make it in time..

So I think this decision should be up to the people themselves. It is difficult I know, but then everyone would have to think about what he/she wants at a time when they are still well and in their right senses. I think this would be a good solution.

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« #48 : April 15, 2005, 04:40:29 AM »

That's the thing about living wills...a lot of people don't leave them, and in Terri Shiavo's case, are not able to communicate what they want.  So sometimes, people die a painful death (like Terri) because nobody really knows what's going on, and are just going on someone else's word about what they think the victim wanted.  Kind of sad.

"God is the Lord, of angels, and of men-and of elves."-J.R.R. Tolkien

And I shall be telling this with a sigh
somewhere ages and ages hence
Two roads diverged in a wood and I,
I took the road less traveled by
And that has made all the difference.

To the class of 2005-Rock On!

E.N.T.A.R.I.!
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« #49 : April 15, 2005, 05:17:15 PM »

I've not gone away, I'll repeat once again.....

Once again, she was in a Perminant Vegititave state- once again it couldn't have been a painful death because her nerves and brain were not working with each other- essentially she was a hollow shell that breathed. Once again this is a pointless argument. Once again you said it.

No matter how many times you slip it in, she didn't feel pain because she couldn't feel the pain- she was dead already.


I'll say this though, the point you're making I kinda can agree with.....sure- people without living wills could be switched off "unwillingly" but to be honest, that's why sanctions were suggested when people that are pro-euthanasia put forward suggestions as to how a Euthansaia law could take effect properly and most importantly; safely.
« : April 15, 2005, 05:27:30 PM Muramasa Edge »




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« #50 : April 16, 2005, 03:58:22 AM »

Hmmm, a permanent vegitative state would mean brain-dead to me.  And maybe someone like that could still feel if they were, you know, starving. 

I'll say this:  Euthanasia is not my area of expertise.  I don't know everything about it.  Of course I realize that not everyone has a Christian world-view like I do, so I think that assisted suicide is wrong.  Mercy-killing:  the phrase is like an oxymoron, almost.  Although I know that people would not want to be in pain, still.  A family taking time out of their lives that they will never get back is the ultimate show of love.  I would rather have love than dignity, if I were in that situation.


"God is the Lord, of angels, and of men-and of elves."-J.R.R. Tolkien

And I shall be telling this with a sigh
somewhere ages and ages hence
Two roads diverged in a wood and I,
I took the road less traveled by
And that has made all the difference.

To the class of 2005-Rock On!

E.N.T.A.R.I.!
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« #51 : April 17, 2005, 09:37:04 PM »

Hmmm, a permanent vegitative state would mean brain-dead to me.  And maybe someone like that could still feel if they were, you know, starving. 

That's an Oxymoronic statement in itself though, because you physically and realistically cannot be Brain dead and feel pain, because when your brain is dead, your human consciousness that processes pain, that processes thought and that processes our electrical signals in our nerves simply doesn't work- there is no cognitive thought process, because the brain is completely shut down- basically, a brain dead state is like switching off an electrical appliance- once the power is out, it stops functioning.....therefore- starving or not- we cannot feel pain when we're braindead, and we cannot feel pain when we are vegitative.


Why do you keep insisting on the opinion that someone who is brain dead can feel pain?! This topic has already explained the reasons why a brain dead human being cannot feel pain whilst braindead- it is impossible.


And again, I'd implore you to reconsider what you're saying in respect to a Christian view; in that if someone is suffering, and wants to die (Effectively, to be with their God if thay're like you are.) then why is it so wrong to allow the person to die and be with their god- it isn't an act of hate or an act of non-loving- if a human wants to die, why is it so wrong?

Just on a separate point; We put other animals down if they are in pain and are suffering with no chance of recovery- why are we so much better that we cannot allow a person the same dignity?




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« #52 : April 18, 2005, 04:34:56 AM »

Okay, let me give you an answer.  Terri Shiavo was not brain-dead.  She was very much brain-alive.  That was where I was coming from.  (I apologize if I was not clear enough.) 

The question in that case is...what if someone doesn't want to die? 

"God is the Lord, of angels, and of men-and of elves."-J.R.R. Tolkien

And I shall be telling this with a sigh
somewhere ages and ages hence
Two roads diverged in a wood and I,
I took the road less traveled by
And that has made all the difference.

To the class of 2005-Rock On!

E.N.T.A.R.I.!
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« #53 : April 21, 2005, 09:11:13 PM »

She wasn't brain alive, because she had no control of her body, couldn't feel any pain and couldn't react to anything save for reflexes. For all extents and purposes she was dead.


To answer your question again, I'll say that the rules for Euthanasia that many people have put forward are only meant to apply to the people that want to die; no-one's suggesting that everyone that gets old or everyone that gets sick should be Euthenised.....hell, if someone doesn't want to die, then so be it. I'm talking about those people who are suffering so much that they want their pain to end.

We're no more sacred or important than any other animal- there is no reason whatsoever to keep someone alive if they do not want to be.
« : April 25, 2005, 09:02:24 PM Muramasa Edge »




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« #54 : April 22, 2005, 08:15:39 PM »

Yeah, but what if they are alive and responsive, but have no way to communicate their wishes and they left no living will?

"God is the Lord, of angels, and of men-and of elves."-J.R.R. Tolkien

And I shall be telling this with a sigh
somewhere ages and ages hence
Two roads diverged in a wood and I,
I took the road less traveled by
And that has made all the difference.

To the class of 2005-Rock On!

E.N.T.A.R.I.!
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« #55 : April 24, 2005, 11:48:56 PM »

Alive, in meaning that the person could feel, could move, could acknowledge people- then Euthanasia isn't viable in that it's not known what that person wants; however- if I know you, you're going to try and trap me into saying the same about the most recent case, and it's not something I'm about to fall for, as my ideas on PVS and yours are two totally different entities.


ONCE AGAIN, I'll reiterate that if a person wants to die, then they should be allowed.....AGAIN, I'll say that if a person is suffering irreversably, then they should be allowed to die should they want to, AGAIN I'll say that if someone is being kept alive for the sake of the fact that their breathing, they should die.....if only just to bring closure to a long dead entity.....

If someone is alive, responsive and able to at least acknowledge people (IE: Their brain is functioning properly.) then and only then do I draw the line and say that that shouldn't be up to other people. I'll reiterate that that is quite often not the case in cases where Euthanasia is called for, as the vast majority of Euthenasia cases are by terminally or irreversibly ill human beings that want their own suffering and pain to end; and to die on their own terms, rather than have their shells eaten away by rotten disease and painful decline.

People who are brain dead don't have that option- in that they're already dead to the world.....only their shell functions, and in that case, it should be allowed that that person should be allowed to die.

People who are victims of PVS, whose brain is basically severed from anything cognitive should also be allowed to die,  not because we're "sick" or "morbid", but because that person is basically dead- it is basically a human being being kept alive for the sake of that person being able to breathe, which is a natural response of the body anyway. If there is no activity in the brain, then why should that person be kept alive for as long as possible?!

Keeping people alive just for the sake of it is wrong, it's just plain wrong in that in some cases it prolongs a person's suffering (if they are indeed able to feel so.) it robs a human being of their dignity in that they will quite often be turned into a media circus, where people will morbidly be discussing why that one human being stayed alive/ was allowed to die.....it also, and this is important, keeps families and loved ones clinging on in a cruel and long wait of false hope when they know deep down that there are no prospects of recovery.

Sure, the issue of non-responsive people is going to be used and discussed for years to come, but the fact of the matter is this- no-one will ever solve the argument; there will always be fors, and there will always be againsts.....


Just on a separate, more curious point, do you mean to tell me that as a Christian, you would be happy to allow a person who can feel pain and has terminal cancer that will slowly spead, infect and kill him to live for years on end in agony, maybe more?! Would you go out with a placard or even go and look that man in the eye and tell him "NO!! You can't die because it's wrong." when he expressly wants to, and not even bother explaining why? No my friend, you couldn't- you aren't that heartless methinks. However, that's the kind of situations people deal with every day, and the conscious ones make that choice every day.....and what's more- when they make that choice- in the name of keeping that person alive and keeping down death records, people call that person "Unfit" to make that decision" and have the arrogance, the venom and the heartlessness to treat that person like he's a moron, like his opinion on his own life is not worth a ****!!


Are we humans that arrogant that we can allow and advocate a terminally ill hamster, rabbit, dog or lion to die- but not one of our own? Bulls--- as far as I'm concerned....simply bulls---. Human arrogance is our downfall.




PS: Again too, what's with the "what if?" questions- you're offering nothing to this discussion but a quiz, you haven't yet explained in detail your opinions, and instead feed off what others say to make your argument. Especially me. Now, before you go asking some more "But what if?" questions of me, I would like to see you give us some of your time and actually explain what it is you find so wrong, because frankly I'm sick of shooting your more superficial arguments down. This has gone on far enough- either give us something of yours to go on, or our part in this topic is over.





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« #56 : April 25, 2005, 12:13:05 AM »

Okay, my beliefs.  I'll lay them down for you all. 

I do believe that Euthanasia is wrong.  Here's what I see as differences.  If someone is unresponsive, as in not really conscious and a respirator is the only thing keeping them alive (their brain not sending signals for their heart to beat and their lungs to breath) then pull the plug.  They're gone.  But if the person is responsive and their brain sends certain vital signals (their heart beats on its own and they breath without the aid of a repirator, only they can't really take care of themselves too well), then they are alive.  (To use an example:  Terri Shiavo was responsive to her parents.  In some ways it seemed, as far as her limbs go, that she was paralyzed.  Just because she was severely brain damaged  does not imply brain-dead.)  Those are the most clear-cut arguments, I think.

However, if someone is in pain, that is a little more difficult to argue.  It's like suicide, because the person can choose to die.  For instance, if someone has cancer, and chooses to die, well, it's harder to think about that.


Then again, if the treatment thing weren't such a big money-winner for the medical practice, there wouldn't be so much pain.

"God is the Lord, of angels, and of men-and of elves."-J.R.R. Tolkien

And I shall be telling this with a sigh
somewhere ages and ages hence
Two roads diverged in a wood and I,
I took the road less traveled by
And that has made all the difference.

To the class of 2005-Rock On!

E.N.T.A.R.I.!
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« #57 : April 25, 2005, 01:03:36 AM »

I don't think it's right of you to pick and choose which sides of this general subject to talk about- we're having a discussion about Euthanasia as a whole, and yet you seem to constantly keep bringing up that one case as your reasoning behind saying that Euthanasia is wrong, thus it would be correct to assume that you're basing your entire argument on one of the many many situations that can arise in this topic. 


Why reply if it's hard to think about- say what it is you believe without the inhibitions of a difficult subject, otherwise there's no point.....when I post, I'm sure that what I'm saying is what I want to say, and what I feel I need to say, I can't allow inhibitions and difficulties to get in the way, otherwise it just cuts down the whole argument and it winds up on the floor to be sweeped up by the opposite side.

I do realise this is a tough subject, but you cannot debate in a topic on one issue in many simply because you don't want to talk about the others, it just seems a little presumptuous to do that.


It's good now that we've got something from you on the subject though, I was getting tired of answering all those questions!  :P :laugh:

The lady in question though was "reported" to have been responsive by the parents- the doctors to my knowledge never agreed nor never said "this woman is responsive, barely, but responsive- the decision to switch off was based upon the fact (and we're talking about many different people here) that the woman was in a permenant Vegitive state and was unresponsive. Wether it was the brain sending the signals is unclear, as there have been many cases where totally brain dead patients have managed to breathe on their own even though they were utterly devoid of life in every other criteria. After extensive debate, research, study and after a long time of blankness reminiscant of a coma, the decision was made to switch off any machines and stop the introvenus feeding. I can understand where there would be debate about that, but ass far as I'm concerned after following the story and reading up on the facts, that woman was dead to the world, and there's nothing anyone can say to convince me otherwise until someone of those doctors say "We got it wrong, she was moving and responsive."


Apart from that though, there's a whole other side to this argument that so far no-one is willing to touch on, and that is the issue of Euthanasia from a conscious human being who is in terminal suffering and pain.




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« #58 : April 25, 2005, 07:17:18 AM »

Apart from that though, there's a whole other side to this argument that so far no-one is willing to touch on, and that is the issue of Euthanasia from a conscious human being who is in terminal suffering and pain.

True, true.  It's a bit like suicide, I think, and can still leave behind pain, though I'm not sure if it's as much like pain as a family member taking their own lives out of depression. 

I think that there should be some discussion over that. 

"God is the Lord, of angels, and of men-and of elves."-J.R.R. Tolkien

And I shall be telling this with a sigh
somewhere ages and ages hence
Two roads diverged in a wood and I,
I took the road less traveled by
And that has made all the difference.

To the class of 2005-Rock On!

E.N.T.A.R.I.!
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« #59 : May 30, 2005, 05:51:08 PM »

I agree with voluntary euthanasia when a person aska someone to assist them.... because if I was suffering immense paina dn everything and I knew I'm just going to suffer like that until I die, then what would all the pain be worth because it's not going to make you better.... so I'd rather be killed nicely.... I don't think that should be against the law if the person wants it

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