Euthenasia

[Cuthien, Wolf-maiden]

Well, how do you know that for sure? 

[Edge]

Because their central nervous system is not working, therefore sensitivities to pain receptors are null, because the body is unable to interpret the signals of the brain- hence, why the person cannot control their body, their sight, or their thought process. How can you feel pain, if the nerves are not workling? The nerves are what tell our bodies what's wrong, they're what alert our senses and what makes us feel pain, warmth, and any other sensations normally associated with touch.

How do I know? Because it's impossible when the nerves are dead to "feel" anything, your brain in a PVS cannot interpret it anyway, even if it would be felt.....so far to my knowledge, no-one, wether it be doctor or family have said that she suffered, felt pain, or made some sort of acknowledgement of said "pain."

(That was in relation to the claim made earlier by yourself that she recognised people, thereby that would theoretically mean she wouldn't have been a PVS victim.....)


Think about it- if you plug in an electrical cable to something, say a kettle for instance- and you have made a break in the wire- say, you've partially severed the connection.....the current doesn't flow properly, so the device basically does nothing because it only gets an incoherent signal. Or in a computer, where the operating system cannot find the vital files necessary to run itself, so stays in a permenant state of BIOS boot.....

We are very similar to each, because our brains use electrical signals through the nerves in ordr to carry out the functions that we want to do.....and our make up is like that of a system also, in that we have different parts doing different jobs for one collective body, that utilises electricity and commands to get the messages through to those different parts.

Now having said that, then it is logical to assume or even to conclude, based on both the facts of PVS and the makeup of the body's nervous system, that when the nerves are not working, a human being cannot feel pain, or anything else for that matter. That's not including the actual fdamage to the brain as well that that poor woman had as well, because that is entirely a factor as well, in that the brain can't interpret the electrical systems effectively.

A similar sort of thing happens wehen a brain dead patient's heart still beats- the brain isn't cognitive and functional, but the body continues to do as it has always done basically out of control.

If the brain isn't thinking coherently, how does that person even know, assuming there was pain there- how can a person know when they can't even think for themselves? I'm not buying the argument that there is pain involved at all, I simply think that the prison-like state of PVS is incomprehensable to some people, and they keep putting themselves in their shoes- effectively saying "If I starve to death, I'm going to be in a lot of pain, so she must be too!" which if that is the viewpoint is a wrong stance to take. Just because coherent human beings can feel pain, does not mean a PVS victim can in my opinion.
That is what I think, and what I know of the human body when the nerves die.....take it as you will, but I'll not tolerate any more insults.


I will say that this is what I have come up with based on a number of differing factors, and it is purely opinion, I have not quoted fact or statistics, as I'm thinking with my own mind here.....as such, I'd ask that people don't assume that what I'm saying is fact, rather, treat it like it is; opinion. 

[Humiliated]

I agree with Edge, I don't think anyone in that state could feel anything, I mean, their in such a vegetive state that they aren't themselves anymore.

[Cuthien, Wolf-maiden]

Whatever.  They still have a soul, which is not connected to nerve endings.  I'm just floored by the starvation thing.  That was so wrong.

[Vårn]

the assumption that they have a soul brings religious belief into it, i thought you said you wanted that left OUT of it?

[Cuthien, Wolf-maiden]

Whatever.

Whatever you believe, is starvation not wrong?  Or is it only wrong for religious folks like myself?   

[Vårn]

you advocate direct intervention? i imagine the problems are legal, that then becomes murder, in legal terms, and even less palatable to a court, i'm sure i've said this...


personally i would advocate intervention, euthanasia is euthanasia, regardless, but i would guess the reasons were legal.

edit: oh, and please don't assume your own superiority

[Cuthien, Wolf-maiden]

you advocate direct intervention? i imagine the problems are legal, that then becomes murder, in legal terms, and even less palatable to a court, i'm sure i've said this...


personally i would advocate intervention, euthanasia is euthanasia, regardless, but i would guess the reasons were legal.

edit: oh, and please don't assume your own superiority

Uh, I'm not. 

Would advocating intervention mean...what?  Just curious as to where you're coming from so I can give an answer.

[Vårn]

no worries then, tonal misinterpretation.

actively killing her, it does seem to be the only alternative to either feeding her or starving her (i have to say i think it would've been more humane then allowing her to starve, she almost certainly felt nothing, but, just on the off chance) all i'm saying is, i can see why it didn't happen, the public as a whole (they who are appeased in a court case like this) seem to be more squeamish then most of it's individual members.

[Unebriwen]

Whatever.  They still have a soul, which is not connected to nerve endings.  I'm just floored by the starvation thing.  That was so wrong.

Hey, look, this topic is about peoples opinions, you can either accept it or not, please don't be so rude with words such as 'whatever', it's both degrading and annoying. I find your views interresting, but not everyone here is a Christian, though Varn your responses aren't helping much either Would both of you please just take a deep breathe before you post again?

[Edge]

*Deep Breath*


The assumption that a human being has a soul on your part, has just proven that what I said previously about those Religious groups with placards and indeed on the bearing of the Christian argument on Euthanasia is a valid argument, and as such have figuratively and literally tripped up your own arguments that point to the contrary. I agree completely with what Varn has said, and don't think he was unjustified in saying what he did. He put it far more precisely and less offensively than I could, and as such is worthy of credit for diffusing the situation.

"Don't assume your own superiority" is a belief I've followed about this member in a number of topics, only I've never put it as eloquently as he did.....as such, I completely believe that it was right and necessary for him to tell her that.


Insofar as your argument though Cuthien, my dilluded friend- are you trying to say that the soul eats, sleeps or does all the things us humans do- because if so, you'll be tripping up one of the most fundamental arguments and bringing it dangerously close to fruition; the question of what we are when we die.

The "soul" is a person's essence according to many beliefs- it is our potential, our emotions and our rationality.....I find it hard to believe that "Digestion" is a part of said belief, and I'd ask you to actually explain your argument, rather than attempting in a futile, pitiful, small and frankly pathetic attempt to insult members of the forum with your constant air of superiority, and the use of words like "whatever" (which clearly show you're on the losing side of the argument.) towards those that don't seem to show your *obvious* right hand position at the seat of your God. 


The soul cannot be harmed in many sects beliefs- the soul lives on; If you could harm the soul, then people like St. Peter, people like the Martyrs of Rome, people like your saviour, Jesus himself would be harmed by their deaths then if that is your argument; So to say that you can hurt the soul by not giving it such pitiful earthly things such as food is to circumvent your own beliefs and your own Church- effectively saying that the concept of the soul is another word for "the human brain." 

Give it up kid. 

[Unebriwen]

Lol, no reason for name-calling Edge m'dear *deep breath*

As much as I like to debate on religion/non-religion ethics, this is about Euthenasia. Anyhow, I'm not exactly sure what the 'soul of Jesus' has to do with Euthenasia, but I do try to keep an open mind (what's left of it).

Euthenasia is almost like abortion, though this person's basically been born For me, if it was a decision, it would depend upon the circumstances. Say I was brain-dead, or even in a vegetative state where I couldn't move, I would not wish to live like that, it would be both hard on myself and on those who would take care of me (if anyone would). Some people love their 'life' so much that they'd rather live like a vegetable than get 'terminated' - and that's fair enough, but it's ultimately up to an individual. Of course in most cases the person is unable to speak/voice their opinion, however when someone is able to voice their opinion, and is asking - pleading, even - to die, to have the plug pulled, then people step in and say that it's murder!
Why would it be murder if they're pleading to be put out of their misery? Something for you to think about

[josher the hobbit]

I've been staying out of this topic because I don't have much to say on this issue, other than what has already been covered...
But I was just wondering something that just came up the other day, with all respect to his memory... if the Pope had had a stroke, what would they do? Like after twenty years or so?
Would they get a new Pope, would they pull the plug? I don't know...it's just one of those questions that I can't work out the answer?

[Unebriwen]

I've been staying out of this topic because I don't have much to say on this issue, other than what has already been covered...
But I was just wondering something that just came up the other day, with all respect to his memory... if the Pope had had a stroke, what would they do? Like after twenty years or so?
Would they get a new Pope, would they pull the plug? I don't know...it's just one of those questions that I can't work out the answer?

The really stupid (and annoying) thing is, that it would be a 99.9% chance they would not pull the plug. Pope John Paul II was very pro-life in his teachings, and very much against Euthenasia, so they would (as they really had done during his last few weeks) try to keep him alive as long as possible. He's what you'd call a symbol amongst the Catholic Church and because of his beliefs, now many people also believe the same. Anyhow, enough of my rambling, the answer would be no: they would not pull the plug on the pope, even if he's in a vegetative fruitish state (I'm sick of saying vegetable ).

[Cuthien, Wolf-maiden]

Yeah, like, what if the Pope was braindead, and they didn't pull the plug?  That would be wrong, because he was essentially gone.  (Braindead meaning that there was no brain function, like no breathing.)

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