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: What is the meaning of life?  ( 171408 )
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« #45 : February 18, 2004, 04:30:45 AM »

why us.... i think that SHOULD have been the question. A question that many scientists have tried to answer over time. Why US?, why are we the humans?  call it fate, call it whatever... IT JUST HAPPENED :P

(btw if you want to shut me up, feel free too kick me :P)


though you know i won't listen :P[/color]


Because we were created to be over all of creation, to take care of it, and to use it.  Well, I am sure someone has already offered this explanation but if you ask me evolution can't explain the "why us" question very well.  Chance?  That's a pleasant thought, by chance I just happened to have a body that can do what it can do, a brain that can reason, and a spirit that yearns for answers.  If you ask me (actually we were all asked what we think the answer is) the very fact that humans can ask questions llike "What is the meaning of life?" shows that we are a little more complex then the rest of nature and that just chance couldn't come up with something like us.

"Politics is basically about who's ox gets gored" Dr. Frank Niles
   

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« #46 : February 18, 2004, 04:31:43 AM »

It's from Babylon 5 and the character G Kar said it in one episode.  When I first heard it, my jaw almost hit the floor.  Praise J Michael Straszinski for his brilliant mind.
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« #47 : February 18, 2004, 04:34:21 AM »

why us.... i think that SHOULD have been the question. A question that many scientists have tried to answer over time. Why US?, why are we the humans?  call it fate, call it whatever... IT JUST HAPPENED :P

(btw if you want to shut me up, feel free too kick me :P)


though you know i won't listen :P[/color]


Because we were created to be over all of creation, to take care of it, and to use it.  Well, I am sure someone has already offered this explanation but if you ask me evolution can't explain the "why us" question very well.  Chance?  That's a pleasant thought, by chance I just happened to have a body that can do what it can do, a brain that can reason, and a spirit that yearns for answers.  If you ask me (actually we were all asked what we think the answer is) the very fact that humans can ask questions llike "What is the meaning of life?" shows that we are a little more complex then the rest of nature and that just chance couldn't come up with something like us.

But my point is, how do we know animals aren't thinking the same thing?  We mimic everything in the animal kingdom.  Rape, murder, adultery etc.  We are no different to animals, because we are animals.

Not all animals can communicate, but they show signs of intelligence.  Just because they don't show it, does not mean they cannot.
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« #48 : February 18, 2004, 05:06:51 AM »

But doesn’t your ant quote show that life is not simple. For your quote to work there had to be something greater that showed us the way and broke us out of our circle of survival. That showed us how to ask questions.

It’s the something that made the ant decide to question its surroundings that complicates things.

Human race is filled with evil but there is goodness out there.  It’s difficult to find both extremes in the animal kingdom and hard to think we copied them from there.

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« #49 : February 18, 2004, 05:14:28 AM »

Agreed!  It takes a whole lot more faith to believe that animals might by as smart as us or that we are here by chance than to believe in something bigger then us that created us.

"Politics is basically about who's ox gets gored" Dr. Frank Niles
   

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« #50 : February 18, 2004, 04:54:45 PM »

Interesting.

Humankind loves stories, patterns and explanations. Religion is just that, a story or an explanation, something that gives meaning to one's existence... and the theories of agnostics and atheists (evolutionists included) are 'religions' or belief systems also. It is very hard not to believe in something.

To say a human being is superior to a virus is an obvious observation, if you are talking about achievement in human terms. If you are talking about achievement in viral terms, a virus is far more efficient at its task than a human being and therefore 'superior'. It is all relative to the kind of superiority you are discussing. While human beings are indeed a dominating species, inasmuchas we have changed the environment to suit our own needs, we will neither outlast nor completely eliminate viruses. Superiority and importance remains a moot point. Even more interesting is the fact that viruses resemble a chemical compound more than they do a living organism; it is still in debate as to whether or not they can be conisdered 'alive' and classified as such. So, human beings versus a highly efficient self-replicating protein-covered chemical 'machine'... evenly matched I'd say.

In response to TO's post, very true. We can't prove animals are as 'intelligent' as us, but neither can we disprove it. We don't even have a satisfactory definition of intelligence yet anyhow. If human beings arose from animals, there is a distinct possibility that another species will follow a similar evolutionary path as us and develop the language and communication skills central to our knowledge base. But our current form of intelligence may not be the only one, and other kinds may yet evolve. Since we can only judge in human terms as humans, we will likely never know.

As for dmx's posts... well, human intelligence might indeed be considered frivolous -in that we don't need it to fit into the evolutionary equation, and yet we retain the capacity. However, it is an interesting point to note that all of our evoutionary ancestors and the rest of the genus Hominis are exinct. Every form of pre-human and similar counterpart no longer exist, save for in the fossil record... so it might well be that Homo sapiens sapiens were saved from exinction by their ability to use their brains. We human beings are weak enough without tools, clothes and other such things... it might have been our species' saving grace that one or two individuals managed to make a fire with a flint at some point.

It is unknown as to why human beings have such a brain capacity, or the reasons which led to its development, but capacity exists in all living things to some degree. Chimps are a good example. A chimp left to its own devices in its natural environment will never learn to communicate with a human being. However, if trained to use a language of symbols and gestures by a human, a chimp can interact with a human being on quite a sophisticated level. Without this intervention, the chimp's capacity for such things would never have been utilised or realised. Similarly, a human being brought up by chimps retains the capacity for human intelligence but does not use it to its fullest, nor develops complex language skills.

The reason human beings have managed to be what we are now is because we have that capacity, because we have language, and because we walk on two feet and have freed our hands for making things. Chimps are already well on the way to being very much like us.

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« #51 : February 18, 2004, 05:38:01 PM »

You can argue that humans are the ultimate virus - we inhabitat every corner of the world and are pushing to move into other areas like the sea bed and mars.  Is there a animal or plant that humans have not tried to eat in a bid to survive?

The problem with chimps is there is no evidence to suggest they can develop on their own without human intervention. They only show human qualities because we taught them how to behave that way. Which brings back to the point of who taught humans to question themselves.  The theory of evolution does not allow us to have a brain capacity that lets us think along those lines.

Many animals shows signs of intelligence that allows them to survive and co-exist in their world and many have, according to evoltionary theory, been around as long as we have. Yet none have decided to question there own role in life. They follow a routine. Even a virus follows a predictable pattern. Human behavoir is sometimes so alien to that of other animals.

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« #52 : February 18, 2004, 09:45:59 PM »

Firstly, all life follows a viral pattern if left unchecked. All organisms would destroy their own systems and consume all resources if they were not checked by predation, disease and ageing. What we see in human terms is the result of a species that has removed all of its predation, checked disease and is in the process of finding ways to slow the ageing process. Hence why there are so many humans on this planet. The same would bode for any organism that was capable of this feat.

Chimps do have a simple language that they have evolved on their own, consisting of facial gestures, sounds and body postures. They live in large groups with complex social bonding structures, and can use a large variety of natural 'tools'. They have achieved this seemingly without any input from another species... in fact they are very close to what early hominids mostly likely resembled.

Again, you can't prove animals don't question themselves. As absurd as it sounds, you just don't know if they do or don't; just because they don't speak doesn't mean they cannot. Chimps, for one, are very intrigued when they see themselves in a mirror, and can identify themselves as individuals.
« : February 18, 2004, 09:47:17 PM Dagger »
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« #53 : February 18, 2004, 10:34:36 PM »

Firstly, all life follows a viral pattern if left unchecked. All organisms would destroy their own systems and consume all resources if they were not checked by predation, disease and ageing. What we see in human terms is the result of a species that has removed all of its predation, checked disease and is in the process of finding ways to slow the ageing process. Hence why there are so many humans on this planet. The same would bode for any organism that was capable of this feat.

I don't believe thats true - many species operate in a manner that conserves their food source. Most notable is a migration route by herd animals. They have an inbuilt sense that tells them not to eat everything, leave some to grow and come back to. Animals behavoiur works togethor to preserve their enviroment till we humans come along and mess it all up for them.  An example of how human thinking differs so greatly from animals.

Humans have not removed all predation - as pointed out earlier we are still very susceptible to virus'. :P

Who made the mirror that chimp is looking in? - once again its an outside source that has made the chimp think outside its own way of life. Plus i'm sure chimps have seen their reflection in water thousands of times over thousands of years with no effect. Other than outside intervention I don't see any reason for animals to start questioning why they exist. Animals evolve to point where they can survive and fit in with their eco system and there is no evolutionary requirement for a radical increase in intelligence that makes them think outside their own survival. ;D
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« #54 : February 18, 2004, 11:34:12 PM »

Actually animals consume food and as much as possible since they don't know when they will get their next meal.  Lots of animals have adapted themselves so that they can eat the most gross plant and still live.

This again is due to evolution.  Chimps can do alot with out the aid of humans and they have the capacity to learn just like us.

All animals do else how could we get cats and dogs to understand a few words.  My cat understands the word, hungry and out.  He also comes home when I whistle for him.  If he wasn't sufficiently intelligent enough, he would not be able to communicate with me.  Much less me with him.  Dolphins understand too, Whales.  Buffalo have been seen to save another when a lion attacks.  It has been proven that they will protect another if the need arises.

It's been proven that elephants are not as maternal as we hoped they would be.  They will kill another baby if the need arises.

We are at the end of the day animals that have surpassed the other animals.  But are we any better than them?  Some seem to think so.  But I don't.

Dolphins have been known to be sweet and kind.  Yet male dolphins have been known to rape females that travel alone.

Chimps will murder other monkeys for a morsel of meat, they also practice having sex when they get a chance to.

Another thing about female elephants is that they will sleep with the head male elephant, but if another comes along that's more powerful, she will also sleep with him.

Love birds are not magnogamous, they too sleep around when the other is not looking.

We are no different to animals.  The reason being we are animals.

We cannot communicate with animals because nature has not allowed them the means to.  IE voice box.  A parrot can.  A dog maybe, another one of my cats attempted, but it's impossible.  The voice box does not allow them to 'talk'.

Therefore we use body language to try and understand them better, or teach them sign language.  Or picture recognition.
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« #55 : February 18, 2004, 11:51:54 PM »

Quote
I don't believe thats true - many species operate in a manner that conserves their food source. Most notable is a migration route by herd animals. They have an inbuilt sense that tells them not to eat everything, leave some to grow and come back to. Animals behavoiur works togethor to preserve their enviroment till we humans come along and mess it all up for them.  An example of how human thinking differs so greatly from animals.

Do they? You're making huge assumptions there. So you're saying these animals are as forward-thinking as to leave pastures green to return to in the future, yet you're saying they aren't capable of rational thought? Sounds like a contradiction to me. Anyway, how do you know? Can you read their minds? Most likely the grazing herds migrate to find better nourishment since the grasses wither during the dry season, and in such large concentrations, they quickly exhaust the availible food. They are probably doing it because it is the only way to survive, not because they've thought out the system and know that it's the right thing to do. Reinforcement of the migratory instinct is likely.
Animal behaviour works in such a way as to counteract the destructive forces of natural selection. When these forces are removed, there is an imbalance. While they exist however, the natural survival instincts of animals and humans alike are not a threat to the system. How can I explain this? Well, consider obesity in humans. Naturally, and in a natural environment, you will always be hungry. Why? Because you will never have ample food to go around, you will work hard to find what food you can, and therefore obesity is rare. However, given an unnatural environment such as that we have created in the West where food is always availible and one does not have to hunt for it, obesity is common. Our instinct to eat is not diminished by this change of lifestyle, and thus people become obese very easily. Hence, if you remove the force of natural selection, the system is unbalanced. This occurs in any situation with just about any animal you care to name.

Quote
Humans have not removed all predation - as pointed out earlier we are still very susceptible to virus'.
As I pointed out earlier there are three types of check: predation, disease (possibly viral) and death by ageing. Viruses are parasitic organisms, my friend.  :P

Quote
Who made the mirror that chimp is looking in? - once again its an outside source that has made the chimp think outside its own way of life. Plus i'm sure chimps have seen their reflection in water thousands of times over thousands of years with no effect. Other than outside intervention I don't see any reason for animals to start questioning why they exist. Animals evolve to point where they can survive and fit in with their eco system and there is no evolutionary requirement for a radical increase in intelligence that makes them think outside their own survival.

So, do you, as a human animal, consider yourself capable of survival if you found yourself suddenly out in the middle of the African Savannah, far from any civilisation? Your capacity for intelligence would be highly beneficial to you then, wouldn't it? You'd die without it.

The point I suppose that is being made here is where did we get our relatively large brains and capacity for intelligence from, and why? Technically speaking, a rat doesn't need the intelligence it has; a dolphin doesn't require the full capacity of its brain to survive; and we as humans are rumoured to use only ten percent of the full capacity of our brains. Deal.

So what are you, religious or what, dmx?

While it is overwhelming to think that a piece of meat like a brain can think, dream and rationalise, it's even more amazing that such a brain could invent something like a supercomputer. But there we are. Complexity birthing complexity... and yet it does not seem (to most people anyhow) such an incredible feat, and a lot more realistic than the evolutionary creation of our own brains. Yet supercomputers, too, 'evolve' through constant iteration of past designs to suit a purpose that we do not - apparently - fully require in order to survive. And yet they exist.
« : February 19, 2004, 12:12:05 AM Dagger »
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« #56 : February 19, 2004, 12:44:06 AM »

Personally I do think there is a case for evolution but I also believe there is more to it than that.  The physical evidence, like our teeth for one thing makes it hard for me not believe we evolved from something. I’m open to options, not ready to make my mind up yet. :P

I’m not making assumptions you just have to look at world around you.  Yes I’m saying that animals are capable of thought.  Generations of animals do the same things and inhabit the same areas, follow routines that they have done for thousands of years.  They need intelligence to carry out theses tasks.  But this is where I have a problem the intelligence required to survive comes no where near the complex thinking required to question your own existing. Learning to survive is trial and error.  We can train animals to do things through trial and error.  I’ve seen examples of animals showing the intelligence to adapt to new situations but that’s it.  Again its trial and error – if we do this we survive so lets keep doing it till it stops working.  What animals don’t do is find something that works then decide to investigate something else out of curiosity.

Why did evolution give us a brain that we only use 10% of? That’s pointless and inefficient – totally against the idea of evolution.  If I found myself in the middle of the desert facing death I asked myself why? What’s it all about? Has it been worth it? A young child who knew the enviroment would have more chance of surviving than an extremely intelliegent person with no local knowledge.  The child, who had learnt and been taught by generations of trial and error, what food to eat and where to get water, Surviving requires minimal intelligence at best.
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« #57 : February 19, 2004, 12:48:34 AM »

Personally I do think there is a case for evolution but I also believe there is more to it than that.  The physical evidence, like our teeth for one thing makes it hard for me not believe we evolved from something. I’m open to options, not ready to make my mind up yet. :P

What about our teeth, exactly?
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« #58 : February 19, 2004, 12:50:58 AM »


No one knows why we have giant brains.  Bigger brains does not make you anymore intelligent.

But it has been suggested that because it takes us at least 18 years to teach a child to grow and learn, that is why we have bigger brains.  Because we're slower.

Look at the animals, it takes them around 2 weeks to find their feet and then they know what they want to do.  Although saying that there are still animals that look after their kids longer.  But normally it's usually for around a year before they move on to another set of kid(s).

Us being here is all about evolution.

Just as giraffes are here.  We learnt to walk on two feet, use our hand, communicate.  At best, the human species is the best shape for doing things.  But that does not make us faster just because we've got two feet.  And no more stronger because we use our arms.

In terms of humans, we are weak.  Compared to the animals in the wild.
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« #59 : February 19, 2004, 12:58:00 AM »

Quote
Just as giraffes are here.  We learnt to walk on two feet, use our hand, communicate.  At best, the human species is the best shape for doing things.  But that does not make us faster just because we've got two feet.  And no more stronger because we use our arms.

In terms of humans, we are weak.  Compared to the animals in the wild.

Very true. Humans are by no means perfectly formed or designed for the role we have chosen to take. For instance, humans are prone to back problems. The reason being that the human spine is simply a 'straightened' version of a quadruped spine, with all pressure being placed in the lumbar region rather than being more evenly distributed as in the quadruped variation, and as such humans often suffer pain in the delicate lumbar region, increasingly so with age and wear.

The human spine is not a good design. In fact, it's terrible. But we sacrifice that in order to free our hands.
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