The Age of the Ring (Lord of the Rings) Forum
Tolkien only Section => Books - Advanced Reading => Topic started by: Taurendil on May 02, 2006, 01:35:55 AM
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I wonder what is the fate of peredhil, i.e. half-elven, are they counted amongst elves or men? Elrond and Elros were given a choice. But what about others for example Eldarion, who is a son of Arwen and Aragorn ??? Was he allowed to the Undying lands?
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all the half elven were given a choice and Eldarion would have been too
I dont know what his decision was... but he would have had it
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Ummm how? I thought the last ship departed and therefore he wouldnt be able to go would he?
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good point! hadnt thought of that.
Im pretty certain he was given the choice tho!, but what I did wonder, is how long they are deemed to be half elven. ? I mean, Elrond was half man half elf. Arwen was 3/4 elf, Eldarion would have been 62% man If he married a "human" their siblings would have been 80% man...
how much is "half elven" ???
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Elros chose to ne mortal and all his line were counted with men. Therefore once Arwen chose to be mortal the same would happend to her children and their offspring. Only the children of those counted with elves have the choice.
Lessa
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Indeed, Arwen chose to be mortal, and Aragorn was mortal, therefore, Eldarion wouldn't've had a choice in the matter: he was mortal.
More interesting that that is the fact that Eldarion, a mortal man, would've technically been the Lord of both Lothlórien and Rivendell...
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Ummm how? I thought the last ship departed and therefore he wouldnt be able to go would he?
What last ship? I thought there still were many elves left after the war of the ring in Middle-earth. I mean the elves of Mirkwood, who 'remained untroubled for many years'.
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Elros chose to ne mortal and all his line were counted with men. Therefore once Arwen chose to be mortal the same would happend to her children and their offspring. Only the children of those counted with elves have the choice.
Lessa
hee hee! thanks for putting me straight again Lessa! :D
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Only the children of those counted with elves have the choice.
But when an elf marries human he(she) automatically becomes mortal, and not counts among elves. I think that the choice was given only to Elrond and Elros, since their parents had a 'specific' fate.
It's strange that Dior son of Beren and Luthien, Thingol's Heir, was as far as I understand an elf, since his parents had become mortal. ???
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Ummm how? I thought the last ship departed and therefore he wouldnt be able to go would he?
What last ship? I thought there still were many elves left after the war of the ring in Middle-earth. I mean the elves of Mirkwood, who 'remained untroubled for many years'.
They never went to Valinor tho, they weren't called Avari for nothing.
Apart from (and on top of) all the other valid arguments. Redundant question regarding Eldarion but well it is always one worth answering or discussing about.
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Ummm how? I thought the last ship departed and therefore he wouldnt be able to go would he?
What last ship? I thought there still were many elves left after the war of the ring in Middle-earth. I mean the elves of Mirkwood, who 'remained untroubled for many years'.
They never went to Valinor tho, they weren't called Avari for nothing.
No it doesn't concern Avari, but the Silvan and the elves of Sindarin descent.
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Ummm how? I thought the last ship departed and therefore he wouldnt be able to go would he?
What last ship? I thought there still were many elves left after the war of the ring in Middle-earth. I mean the elves of Mirkwood, who 'remained untroubled for many years'.
They never went to Valinor tho, they weren't called Avari for nothing.
No it doesn't concern Avari, but the Silvan and the elves of Sindarin descent.
Both of whom are Avari (and their descendants). If I remember correctly only Thingol of all Sindar was considered different due to the fact that the light of the two trees was in Melian, another exception was Celeborn but because of Galadriel.
Apart from that with the coming of the 4th age I don't think there was more traffic between Valinor and anywhere else :dry:
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Both of whom are Avari (and their descendants). If I remember correctly only Thingol of all Sindar was considered different due to the fact that the light of the two trees was in Melian, another exception was Celeborn but because of Galadriel.
You're right but for the wrong reason. Thingol travelled to Valinor himself as one of the three leaders/ambassadors of the three groups of elves along with Finwe and Ingwe. He went back to Middle-earth to take his people to Valinor but was waylaid by Melian.
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Avari are not those elves who didn't see the light of the trees only, they are those who refused the Great Journey from Cuivienen. The silvan and the sindar are eldar, i.d. elves of the Three Kindreds, and in our case Teleri. Legolas, for example, is one of them and he sailed into the West.
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Both of whom are Avari (and their descendants). If I remember correctly only Thingol of all Sindar was considered different due to the fact that the light of the two trees was in Melian, another exception was Celeborn but because of Galadriel.
You're right but for the wrong reason. Thingol travelled to Valinor himself as one of the three leaders/ambassadors of the three groups of elves along with Finwe and Ingwe. He went back to Middle-earth to take his people to Valinor but was waylaid by Melian.
I have found that passage on page 52 and I stand corrected. Elwe did indeed make it there, but not his people and by that time they were all considered Teleri not Sindar.
Avari are not those elves who didn't see the light of the trees only, they are those who refused the Great Journey from Cuivienen. The silvan and the sindar are eldar, i.d. elves of the Three Kindreds, and in our case Teleri. Legolas, for example, is one of them and he sailed into the West.
You are a Moriquendi if you didn't see the light of the two trees, and to be able to give them a miss you had to be an Avari, so both are interrelated. I'm sure there must have been traffic between Valinor and M.E in between at times but if you remember correctly that passage wasn't open to all.
The silvan and sindar to me are watered down Eldar because their link with the Eldar is given by their kinship with the Teleri (even if on page 53 of the Silmarillion it is stated otherwise).
Let's put it simple to me the only kins able to travel to Valinor were the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri.
Aa for Legolas my memory escapes me but does it ever say Gimli and himself went to Valinor? or just sailed into the sea and not much more.
I suppose that after all it is a brain tickling topic but I still stick with the kins who are able and the ones who are unable/didn't bother at any stage to go to the West.
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Avari are not those elves who didn't see the light of the trees only, they are those who refused the Great Journey from Cuivienen. The silvan and the sindar are eldar, i.d. elves of the Three Kindreds, and in our case Teleri. Legolas, for example, is one of them and he sailed into the West.
You are a Moriquendi if you didn't see the light of the two trees, and to be able to give them a miss you had to be an Avari, so both are interrelated. I'm sure there must have been traffic between Valinor and M.E in between at times but if you remember correctly that passage wasn't open to all.
The silvan and sindar to me are watered down Eldar because their link with the Eldar is given by their kinship with the Teleri (even if on page 53 of the Silmarillion it is stated otherwise).
Let's put it simple to me the only kins able to travel to Valinor were the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri.
Aa for Legolas my memory escapes me but does it ever say Gimli and himself went to Valinor? or just sailed into the sea and not much more.
I suppose that after all it is a brain tickling topic but I still stick with the kins who are able and the ones who are unable/didn't bother at any stage to go to the West.
There is a wonderful diagram in the Silmarillion which explains it. I don't know if I'm just reiterating what other have said, but I might as well explain the different terms if only as a memory exerise for me! :P
Avari = elves that refused the summons to Valinor, the "Unwilling"; does not include Nandor, Silvan, Sindar, Laiquendi, Falathrim etc. because they were simply waylaid (there were willing, just slow); these are simply elves who were not of the three clans (it was Avari elves that were corrupted into orcs).
Úmanyar = those of the Eldar who never made it to Aman; Nandor, Silvan, Sindar, Laiquendi, Falathrim, etc.
Moriquendi = all elves who never saw the light of the trees, "Elves of the Darkness"; this is basically an umbrella term for the Úmanyar and Avari combined.
Eldar = All elves who made the Great Journey (or at least part of it); everyone except the Avari - Noldor, Vanyar, Teleri, Nandor, Silvan, Sindar, Laiquendi, Falathrim, etc. Because little it known of the actual Avari, this is often a synonym for "Quendi" (all elves).
Calaquendi = all elves of who went to Aman and saw the light; Noldor, Vanyar, and Teleri (more specifically the Falmari).
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Both of whom are Avari (and their descendants). If I remember correctly only Thingol of all Sindar was considered different due to the fact that the light of the two trees was in Melian, another exception was Celeborn but because of Galadriel.
You're right but for the wrong reason. Thingol travelled to Valinor himself as one of the three leaders/ambassadors of the three groups of elves along with Finwe and Ingwe. He went back to Middle-earth to take his people to Valinor but was waylaid by Melian.
I have found that passage on page 52 and I stand corrected. Elwe did indeed make it there, but not his people and by that time they were all considered Teleri not Sindar.
Avari are not those elves who didn't see the light of the trees only, they are those who refused the Great Journey from Cuivienen. The silvan and the sindar are eldar, i.d. elves of the Three Kindreds, and in our case Teleri. Legolas, for example, is one of them and he sailed into the West.
You are a Moriquendi if you didn't see the light of the two trees, and to be able to give them a miss you had to be an Avari, so both are interrelated. I'm sure there must have been traffic between Valinor and M.E in between at times but if you remember correctly that passage wasn't open to all.
The silvan and sindar to me are watered down Eldar because their link with the Eldar is given by their kinship with the Teleri (even if on page 53 of the Silmarillion it is stated otherwise).
Let's put it simple to me the only kins able to travel to Valinor were the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri.
Aa for Legolas my memory escapes me but does it ever say Gimli and himself went to Valinor? or just sailed into the sea and not much more.
I suppose that after all it is a brain tickling topic but I still stick with the kins who are able and the ones who are unable/didn't bother at any stage to go to the West.
I see no reason why the sindar and silvan could not sail to Valinor, since they are Teleri and not Avari. In fact many of the sindar and green elves, who never so the light of the Tree sailed to the Undying Lands after the War of Wroth when the Valar permitted the elves to do so. Yet some sindar chose to linger in Middle-earth and turned east and settled amongst Silvan in Mirkwood, Lorien.
Comcerning Legolas:
Then Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien and sailed down Anduin and so over the Sea; ....
I think 'over the Sea' means nothing but the Undying West. And also do you remember Legolas' song:
To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying,
The wind is blowing, and the white foam is flying.
West, west away, the round sun is falling.
Grey ship, grey ship, do you hear them calling.
The voices of my people that have gone before me?
I will leave, I will leave the woods that bore me;
For our days are ending and our years failing.
I will pass the wide waters lonely sailing.
Long are the waves on the Last Shore falling,
Sweet are the voices in the Lost Isle calling,
In Eressëa, in Elvenhome that no man can discover,
Where the leaves fall not: land of my people for ever!’
Also there's a reference in the UT, if I'm not mistaken, that many Silvan journeyed to the Undying Lands from the haven in the South Gondor, Edhellonde.
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Here's one of the many evidences that the Silvan and Sindar journeyed into the west
Amroth vowed that for her sake he would leave his people, ..., and with her [Nimrodel] seek for such land [land of peace]. 'But there is none now in Middle-earth,' he said, 'and will not be for Elven-folk ever again. We must seek for a passage over the Great Sea to the Ancient West.' Then he told her of the haven in the south, where many of his own people had come long ago. 'They are now diminished, for most have set sail into the West; but the remnant of them still build ships and offer passage to any of their kin that come to them, weary of Middle-earth. It is said that the grace that the Valar gave to us to pass over the Sea is granted also now to any who made the Great Journey, even if they did not come in ages past to the shores and have not yet beheld the Blessed Realm
Unfinished Tales, History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Amroth and Nimrodel
Nimrodel is Silvan and Amroth is Sindar.
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Here's one of the many evidences that the Silvan and Sindar journeyed into the west
Amroth vowed that for her sake he would leave his people, ..., and with her [Nimrodel] seek for such land [land of peace]. 'But there is none now in Middle-earth,' he said, 'and will not be for Elven-folk ever again. We must seek for a passage over the Great Sea to the Ancient West.' Then he told her of the haven in the south, where many of his own people had come long ago. 'They are now diminished, for most have set sail into the West; but the remnant of them still build ships and offer passage to any of their kin that come to them, weary of Middle-earth. It is said that the grace that the Valar gave to us to pass over the Sea is granted also now to any who made the Great Journey, even if they did not come in ages past to the shores and have not yet beheld the Blessed Realm
Unfinished Tales, History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Amroth and Nimrodel
Nimrodel is Silvan and Amroth is Sindar.
Well, it seems obvious to me that they could've sailed into the west because they were still broadly Teleri and weren't Avari.
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I'd say not only could have sailed but did sail to the Undying Lands
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But in that case, did Gimli make it to Valinor?
I believe he did, for his part in the War of the Ring, and his friendship with Legolas.
Indeed, Arwen chose to be mortal, and Aragorn was mortal, therefore, Eldarion wouldn't've had a choice in the matter: he was mortal.
More interesting that that is the fact that Eldarion, a mortal man, would've technically been the Lord of both Lothlórien and Rivendell...
Would there be anything to rule apart from an uninhabited decrepit wood?
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But in that case, did Gimli make it to Valinor?
I believe he did, for his part in the War of the Ring, and his friendship with Legolas.
Indeed, Arwen chose to be mortal, and Aragorn was mortal, therefore, Eldarion wouldn't've had a choice in the matter: he was mortal.
More interesting that that is the fact that Eldarion, a mortal man, would've technically been the Lord of both Lothlórien and Rivendell...
Would there be anything to rule apart from an uninhabited decrepit wood?
Wel.... Mordor, far Rhun and Khand I don't think he had any power over. And Rohan, of course. Lindon, Mirkword, Erebor, Beornings...
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Indeed, Arwen chose to be mortal, and Aragorn was mortal, therefore, Eldarion wouldn't've had a choice in the matter: he was mortal.
More interesting that that is the fact that Eldarion, a mortal man, would've technically been the Lord of both Lothlórien and Rivendell...
All assuming that Elrohir and Elladan didnt have children, surely if they remained elven, and didnt become Mortal, they would have been rightful heirs and their offspring from then on..
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Indeed, Arwen chose to be mortal, and Aragorn was mortal, therefore, Eldarion wouldn't've had a choice in the matter: he was mortal.
More interesting that that is the fact that Eldarion, a mortal man, would've technically been the Lord of both Lothlórien and Rivendell...
All assuming that Elrohir and Elladan didnt have children, surely if they remained elven, and didnt become Mortal, they would have been rightful heirs and their offspring from then on..
Well indeed, but, I personally think the stayed elven and went to Valinor. Just an opinion of mine.
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they could still have had children tho,
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does it state somewhere then they had offspring? just a curosity
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whether they had children of not is not stated as dar as I can remember
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therefore this will remain as a sort of mystery
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indeed
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thats a pity actually.... but leaves it open for anyone to make their own conclusion in a way
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sometines it's nice to fro the author to leave something for the reader to ruminate on
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does make you wonder tho, had he lived a little longer, whether we would have found out more about the fourth age :-\
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who knows.. he might have done it as well.... the work in itself seems to be actually open to much more additons!
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He was working on improving the Sil in the years up to his death. But you're right he could well have moved on to the 4th age and who knows what direction he would have taken it.
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indeed.. but seems that time has taken it toll after all... as it happens usually.,.. i have the dvds and i was enchanted that the song of beren and luthien was written as his wife used to dance for him like luthien for beren.. and that in their stones in the cemetery they have written luthein and beren too... :wub: