The Age of the Ring (Lord of the Rings) Forum
Tolkien only Section => Books - Advanced Reading => Topic started by: Taurendil on April 11, 2006, 02:03:59 AM
-
Do you believe that ME could have existed in the past? It's not clear if Tolkien created a myth linked to reality or wrote a history or both. Personally I think it is quite possible if it was very long ago. In one of his interviews Tolkien stated that we live at the end of sixth or at the beginning of seventh age. What is your opinion?
-
I don't think it existed as a whole, but the ideas of it certainly did, and by that I mean the aspects of life and beliefs. Tolkien certainly got some of his ideas from the past. However, if it did exist then there would be some sort of archeological evidence which could be found. So that's a no for me.
-
I dont know about that Gollum. It is very difficult to find archaeological evidence of things like wood and fabrics. Which is why there is so little evidence about what went on during the Dark Ages. I think it is a very likely that 'Tolkiens' world existed before he wrote about it.
One of the problems is that archaelogical finds are always open to interpretation. And quite often that interpretation follows along agreed 'norms' which ALSO quite often dont fit and have to be changed! Sometimes archaeologists have real difficulties explaining what they find and I think that is why. The problem is that there is a lot of subjectivity involved and ones persons interpretation might well not fit anothers'. Who is to say that some of the buildings they find in various places might not be the remain of Edoras for example? Just because they decide something is Egyptian or sumsuch thing does not necessarily mean they are accurate.
I believe that is existed anyway. As I have said many times before. ;)
-
I tend to agree with you Beleriel. I too don't think we know enough about the past to dismiss the possibility.
Lessa
-
And I thought I was the only one here to believe in this possibility. ::)
Archaeological evidence you say? But it is most likely that original shape of Middle Earth has greatly changed, similarly to the changing after the downfall of Numenor or the War of Wroth. Thus no trace of the civilazation of ME have been conserved.
-
But something usually remains, either bone or remnants of a former structure, even ditches forming defenses or boundaries, all of which can be carbon dated within a certain degree of accuracy. This could then be contrasted with calculations regarding continental drift, hence leading to the whereabouts of the numerous tectonic plates.
-
If you refering to my preceding reply then I should say that I meant the utter change of the Earth, maybe even complete destruction of ME, like the Atlantis for example. There is no knowledge of how big ME was, but if we judge by the well-known map, it's not quite big. Smaller than Europe. It could have disappered without leaving any trace, maybe gradually drowning in the sea.
-
...There is no knowledge of how big ME was, but if we judge by the well-known map, it's not quite big. Smaller than Europe. It could have disappered without leaving any trace, maybe gradually drowning in the sea.
Rivendell to Carhadras: 40 days
ME must have been huge - there were civalizations we know hardly anything about out to the East and South. And the Numenoreans also visited other landmasses.
This (http://www.globalarray.net/user/tsayn/M-E-Euro.jpg) shows one idea of how they might have matched up.
-
It's not very much, 40 days, for journeying on foot in the wild. I don't think it's size is bigger than that of Australia. Anyway ME could have been completely destructed and re-shaped during following ages.
-
But something usually remains, either bone or remnants of a former structure, even ditches forming defenses or boundaries, all of which can be carbon dated within a certain degree of accuracy. This could then be contrasted with calculations regarding continental drift, hence leading to the whereabouts of the numerous tectonic plates.
One characteristic of human settling practices is to make use of preceding constructions, these end up being adapted to their specific architectural needs, just like Saxons adapted Roman defences and then Norman structures were capitalized on during tudor times, and so on and on.
You have to bear in mind that from a speculative point of view (if/when) Middle Earth existed as it is portrayed in geological terms continental drift is not a cataclysmic event, it is an evolutionary one and takes periods of times which could see a kingdom come and go, what really can deface a known map of Ancient Earth is more dynamically "moved" events such as ice ages and the consequential scarring/shaping caused by glacier melting. Parts of Kent were once a desert so what makes you think that highly perishable items or even marklands would be imperishable? pretty much nothing is and tracking ancient civilizations has its limits, even if anything had survived the last glaciation we are talking of a set of civilizations that needed to be there before 30,000 years ago at least and that is a really long time for a lot of things to happen.
C.C I have a document somewhere called meridional grid on M.E that maybe you might be interested on. The map you posted is almost spot on to the calculations given on the document.
Taurendil the issue of recknoning of ages or time is a tricky one, even if Tolkien dared to say a 6th or 7th age that means there would have been a formula to calculate it and the impression it gives from the books is that highly important events are what decide this not pre-set amounts of years.
Also please anyone who might come after don't try and say that because "tolkien meant for this to be a mythology of Britain" that all of M.E really fits in Wales or even the whole of Britain, it is ridiculous to say the least.
One more thing I need to add, there are people who believe and people who don't, then there are some who collect bits and bobs of information to support their argument, and trust me there are many, just let's put it simple, if the Tolkien Estate was interested in ever saying that there are actual and factual elements that define this story as part of a set of older mythology of a distant past then that day will come after C. Tolkien dies, simply the royalties are too great for them to even consider letting go of the golden hen. (if there was such a thing they could disclose of course) ;)
-
I don't know why, but the idea of matching ME with Europe seems absurd to me. Yet even if it so, there wouldn't be any traces left, because of serious changes of the land and a long period of time.
-
I think if you look at the map CC has posted you can see that ME extends beyond Europe.
-
I don't know why, but the idea of matching ME with Europe seems absurd to me. Yet even if it so, there wouldn't be any traces left, because of serious changes of the land and a long period of time.
Why would that be? Certainly the mythology contained in the books is closer to Europe than that of Africa or the Middle East or anywhere else in the world. Certainly parts of it are anyway and as B stated if you look closely parts of it appear outside Europe.
-
Yes, the history written by Tolkien is closer to the mythology of Europe than to mythology of any other lands. But it was so long ago. At least that statement cannot be taken as truth for sure. I tend to consider ME as a big island rather than a part of the continent.
As a matter of fact the most contradictory thing is that Tolkien states that ME originally was flat, while planets are round, or as he wrote 'bent', from the beginning.
-
I dont know why, I have no reasonable explanantion. There is plenty of evidence to suppose it did exist... and I beleive it did,
The only thing that I think, wrongly or rightly, is that it didnt all exist at once. i.e that perhaps gondor didnt exist at the same time as Edoras for instance.
There is a Tolkien letter, which where he tries to explain which time era each area of ME existed in... e.g. Edoras, being Medieval... but he also says that Gondor is partly Egyptian ..............
Thank you very much for your letter.... It came while I was away, in Gondor (sc. Venice), as a change from the North Kingdom, or I would have answered before.
Letter 168
I have no doubt that in the area envisaged by my story (which is large) the 'dress' of various peoples, Men and others, was much diversified in the Third Age, according to climate, and inherited custom. As was our world, even if we only consider Europe and the Mediterranean and the very near 'East' (or South), before the victory in our time of the least lovely style of dress (especially for males and 'neuters') which recorded history reveals – a victory that is still going on, even among those who most hate the lands of its origin. The Rohirrim were not 'mediaeval', in our sense. The styles of the Bay eux Tapestry (made in England) fit them well enough, if one remembers that the kind of tennis-nets [the] soldiers seem to have on are only a clumsy conventional sign for chain-mail of small rings.
The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled 'Egyptians' – the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And in their great interest in ancestry and in tombs. (But not of course in 'theology' : in which respect they were Hebraic and even more puritan – but this would take long to set out:
Letter 211
This is what Tolkien says about the existence of ME .......... but are we to beleive him ? Or was it a cover up, for some evidence that hasnt yet been released ???
Mine is not an 'imaginary' world, but an imaginary historical moment on 'Middle-earth' – which is our habitation.
Letter 184
-
I dont know why, I have no reasonable explanantion. There is plenty of evidence to suppose it did exist... and I beleive it did,
The only thing that I think, wrongly or rightly, is that it didnt all exist at once. i.e that perhaps gondor didnt exist at the same time as Edoras for instance.
I think we are talking here about actual existence of ME, including events that happened there, not only as a geographical object. Like a history. And why do you think it didn't all exist at once??
The main questions, in my opinion, are where and when it existed in relation to Earth's real history.
-
I dont know why, I have no reasonable explanantion. There is plenty of evidence to suppose it did exist... and I beleive it did,
The only thing that I think, wrongly or rightly, is that it didnt all exist at once. i.e that perhaps gondor didnt exist at the same time as Edoras for instance.
I think we are talking here about actual existence of ME, including events that happened there, not only as a geographical object. Like a history. And why do you think it didn't all exist at once??
The main questions, in my opinion, are where and when it existed in relation to Earth's real history.
yes I know what you are talking about! Why do you question that!
and I beleive many of my quotes from Tolkien's letters support the fact that I beleive it didnt all exist together in time at the same time. The fact that Gondor has lot of Eqyptian background... Edoras, Medieveal, Hobbiton from Scandinavian/England folklore times...
-
Then I don't unbderstand how the events could have taken place if the places didn't exist at one time??
-
E.G of course Rohan didn't exist when the two kingdoms in exiled first appeared (the coming of Eorl to the south and so forth), that we know of even in the books, however considering that Gondor would have been in a comparable Bronze Age (classical period) and Rohan in a Norman period is not what I believe Tolkien tries to state there. The intention in my opinion is to make it easier for people to identify what these two cultures were like according to more recent samples.
Where and when is indeed difficult to state Taurendil but to target where we must first know the when and I think that to guesstimate based on the timeline given by Tolkien (somewhat dubious and hazy I must add) means you are making speculations as accurate as the rate of success of a carbon dating (e.g gaps of hundreds of years up to a millenia), of course such a period of time is not long enough to move a whole mass of land completely but making use of your words the view of M.E being flat befits the belief of the Norse and Germanic people surrounding the Yggdrasil, and that of many more people.
It seems to be that only earlier in time people had knowledge of earth being "bent". There's the speculation that romans might have known (refer to the pediment of the four seasons at Aqua Sulis, namely Bath) and the Piri Reis Map. In the aforementioned map we have a copy made by an Islamic captain of maritime routes and lands not charted later in time in Europe. It is said the map in earlier editions could have been copied in Alexandria prior to the burning of it by Julius Caesar and then passed on to the library of Constantinople. This map funnily enough shows this depiction of the planet just after the last glaciation.
Here I give you the link anyway and the book by Professor Hapgood is aptly named "Sea routes of the Ancient Sea-Kings"
(http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_1.htm (http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_1.htm))
I personally believe that the documented history of the planet by any biped does not start with the beginning of Earth as a planet (no no apes involved here). this planet has shon stages where from an arthropod (insects) ruled planet we have gone to reptilians and lately to supra-"inteligent" bipeds so the "ages" described in the works might be as early as 300,000 years for estimating a reasonable time frame for a settled biped civilization, "modern" humans are known to have appeared only about 40,000 years ago which doesn't mean human-like people didn't exist before.
So you can choose to work on those estimates and find out what the state of the planet was 300,000 years ago (pretty much the same as nowadays in a tectonic sense) (Misocene being one of the nearest modern stages is still a few million years ago and shows the same structure we now possess http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~rcb7/Mio.jpg (http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~rcb7/Mio.jpg)) the only real changes were fluctuation of what happened on top of these continental plates (weather and ecosystems)
If you have checked Karen Forsyth's Atlas of M.E (a relatively acceptable speculative source) you will see that the evolution of Arda is not unlike that seen in geological history, whether that is on purpose or not. (http://geology.com/pangea.htm (http://geology.com/pangea.htm)). Thing is to find that "island stage" you talk about you need to go back to Pangea and this matches the time Almaren was around before the "breaking of the world" (http://www.wallenium.de/php/lotr/images/cr_ages_of_the_lamps.jpg (http://www.wallenium.de/php/lotr/images/cr_ages_of_the_lamps.jpg)) whereas Arda in the 4th age is more recognizable as our present day world (http://www.wallenium.de/php/lotr/images/cr_the_fourth_age_of_the_sun.jpg (http://www.wallenium.de/php/lotr/images/cr_the_fourth_age_of_the_sun.jpg))
I just don't see it as an isolated complex but part of a dynamic land mass which is to me undeniably linked with the history of the land mass of Europe and parts of Africa and Asia. There just isn't any other possible land mass able to accomodate this complex in that time frame with such drastic changes.
-
Where and when is indeed difficult to state Taurendil but to target where we must first know the when and I think that to guesstimate based on the timeline given by Tolkien (somewhat dubious and hazy I must add) means you are making speculations as accurate as the rate of success of a carbon dating (e.g gaps of hundreds of years up to a millenia), of course such a period of time is not long enough to move a whole mass of land completely but making use of your words the view of M.E being flat befits the belief of the Norse and Germanic people surrounding the Yggdrasil, and that of many more people.
It seems to be that only earlier in time people had knowledge of earth being "bent". There's the speculation that romans might have known (refer to the pediment of the four seasons at Aqua Sulis, namely Bath) and the Piri Reis Map. In the aforementioned map we have a copy made by an Islamic captain of maritime routes and lands not charted later in time in Europe. It is said the map in earlier editions could have been copied in Alexandria prior to the burning of it by Julius Caesar and then passed on to the library of Constantinople. This map funnily enough shows this depiction of the planet just after the last glaciation.
I personally believe that the documented history of the planet by any biped does not start with the beginning of Earth as a planet (no no apes involved here). this planet has shon stages where from an arthropod (insects) ruled planet we have gone to reptilians and lately to supra-"inteligent" bipeds so the "ages" described in the works might be as early as 300,000 years for estimating a reasonable time frame for a settled biped civilization, "modern" humans are known to have appeared only about 40,000 years ago which doesn't mean human-like people didn't exist before.
I just don't see it as an isolated complex but part of a dynamic land mass which is to me undeniably linked with the history of the land mass of Europe and parts of Africa and Asia. There just isn't any other possible land mass able to accomodate this complex in that time frame with such drastic changes.
Actually I've made a mistake, the world was flat, not ME only. It's still the most important questions however it's explained in Norse mythology.
I meant geological history of Earth, not a documented one. In my opinion if ME really existed it was even more than 300,000 years ago. So it can't be linked with Africa or Europe. By the way, we're forgetting the fact that the stars were also made by the Valar when they lived in ME, and the stars are several billions years old, as far as I know.
-
if you think its not linked with Europe or Africa, where do you think it existed ? As Nil says, when the land masses were different, what were to become Europe and Africa are there.
Or perhaps you beleive it exists in a parallel universe ? that it wasnt on this earth ?
When you asked me about how the events happened, you are really asking, whether we think that "The Lord of the Rings" happened. The story, not the existence of Middle Earth.
I beleive that the essence of LOTR probably did happen, perhaps... I certainly beleive that the places existed, as I said, not in the same time frame as depicted in LOTR. There are some events to me, that arent described in the book, which PJ for instance picked up on, that I think would have happened too... e,g elves at Helms Deep
But I digress.
[edit] I found this quote in his letters.... Tolkien talks of characters who have arrived, not of those he has invented or made up...
A new character has come on the scene (I am sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, though I like him, but there he came walking into the woods of Ithilien): Faramir, the brother of Boromir – and he is holding up the 'catastrophe' by a lot of stuff about the history of Gondor and Rohan (with some very sound reflections no doubt on martial glory and true glory): but if he goes on much more a lot of him will have to be removed to the appendices — where already some fascinating material on the hobbit Tobacco industry and the Languages of the West have gone.
Letter 66
-
That's fine Taurendil, however in this land mass we call planet earth before 300,000 years ago there was no place which would have bore the ressemblance of M.E. of course I'm not saying it is impossible, just improbable. Also how would one explain this surviving as a myth up to the last 30,000 years when it could have entered the mind of our more modern human beings? :-\
-
What do we mean by saying Middle-earth existed in the past? I personally understand it directly: all events that are described in the books (beginning from the Silmarillion) took place in a land mass called Middle-earth(also in Aman, Numenore, Tol Eressёa).
However if we are talking about a possibility of the existence of Middle-earth just as a land, then it's quite possible that it was where now Europe is, there's not any serious obstacle to accept it.
But taking into consideration the Silmarillion, do we deny some facts of the creation and changing of Middle-earth? I mean, it seems to me that some events cannot be separated from the land and vice versa. For exampe do we deny the existence of Beleriand? It was destroyed by Valar during the War of Wroth. If not, why then to deny Middle-earth once being flat?
-
If not, why then to deny Middle-earth once being flat?
Perhaps because the exact intention is to make the views of M.E being flat similar to those in the Middle Ages? (in Europe at least)
As for Beleriand you can certainly see that parts of nowadays Europe did extend far from its present basin. North Sea being above water, Mediteranean following its cycle of emptiness and fulness, The Scilly Islands showing the existance of a much bigger land mass where they stand nowadays. This image is a good indicative of how these basins might look above water (http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/infobank/gazette/jpg/regions/fr_eu.jpg (http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/infobank/gazette/jpg/regions/fr_eu.jpg)).
How you see the war of wrath is really up to you, interpretation in an anthropological sense gives plenty of room for that, you can "humanize" (or valarize if you like) or you can try and see it as natural events of cataclysmic nature. Still between the start of any recknoning of time and Arda as Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Humans, Hobbits, etc came to know it there is always going to be a tremendous span of time, otherwise you are denying (as you say) the existance of the planet in other essential stages of evolution/creation (a mistake also perpetuated by Religion)
Things being flat simply are an illusion or how a human perceives in a brief amount of time his surroundings, won't enter the land pf astro-physics but needless to say it has yet to be found a flat planet, flat maps perhaps but not tridimensional entities of this sort, and allow me to add there Arda can't be exempt from similar natural laws that other planets/galaxies/multiverses/complexes , etc are subjected to.
-
This map I think, is very helpful to illustrate the location and changing landscape when referring to Middle Earth and Europe. It is very interesting to study and compare what is going on and helps to identify more, I think where ME was actually located.
http://element.ess.ucla.edu/pictures/Middle-Earth.jpg
Note that the map has been tilted anti-clockwise but it clearly shows a lot of the mountain ranges etc etc.
-
If not, why then to deny Middle-earth once being flat?
Perhaps because the exact intention is to make the views of M.E being flat similar to those in the Middle Ages? (in Europe at least)
As for Beleriand you can certainly see that parts of nowadays Europe did extend far from its present basin. North Sea being above water, Mediteranean following its cycle of emptiness and fulness, The Scilly Islands showing the existance of a much bigger land mass where they stand nowadays. This image is a good indicative of how these basins might look above water (http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/infobank/gazette/jpg/regions/fr_eu.jpg (http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/infobank/gazette/jpg/regions/fr_eu.jpg)).
How you see the war of wrath is really up to you, interpretation in an anthropological sense gives plenty of room for that, you can "humanize" (or valarize if you like) or you can try and see it as natural events of cataclysmic nature. Still between the start of any recknoning of time and Arda as Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Humans, Hobbits, etc came to know it there is always going to be a tremendous span of time, otherwise you are denying (as you say) the existance of the planet in other essential stages of evolution/creation (a mistake also perpetuated by Religion)
Things being flat simply are an illusion or how a human perceives in a brief amount of time his surroundings, won't enter the land pf astro-physics but needless to say it has yet to be found a flat planet, flat maps perhaps but not tridimensional entities of this sort, and allow me to add there Arda can't be exempt from similar natural laws that other planets/galaxies/multiverses/complexes , etc are subjected to.
So you mean that elves, dwarves and other creatures are also, say, a mythical beings and a fruit of people's imagination, along with Middle-earth being flat and other events? Well, that is possible. Eventually I come to the conclusion that our views differed in the understanding of what 'Middle-earth existed in the past' means. As I've said, the existence of Middle-earth where now Europe is only as a land mass is probable.
This map I think, is very helpful to illustrate the location and changing landscape when referring to Middle Earth and Europe. It is very interesting to study and compare what is going on and helps to identify more, I think where ME was actually located.
http://element.ess.ucla.edu/pictures/Middle-Earth.jpg
Note that the map has been tilted anti-clockwise but it clearly shows a lot of the mountain ranges etc etc.
Nice finding, Beleriel!
-
That map is almost accurate except for very small adjustments needed. :)
No Taurendil, you got the the wrong way round. What I mean is that the impression that Tolkien wanted to give was to portray people of the time believing the planet was flat just as we once did, period.
For us as a race to realise that the planet isn't flat it took if you want to call it something "tetra-dimensional" thinking. What I mean by this is that you have to remove yourself from the picture to be able to see it whole and since for people of that time it was only conjectural the belief that earth might not be flat you had to set the precedent so that others could observe and experiment and eventually find proof that the place wasn't flat.
As for mythological beings I could talk about my own impressions on certain peoples but we would be entering scientific realms again and subjects that are best put in a book :P
I doubt I can add anything else to this topic as:
A) I have stated what to me constitutes proof of Middle Earth's existance from many a viewpoint.
B) Once those variables have been explained it just makes me consider even more that for any of the events to take place in our reality they would have had to take place in that time span and therefore in that land mass.
C) If I keep repeating it I will make myself dizzy :laugh:, plus you are entitled to believe what you may, I'm not proselitist in any way. :)
-
What I still haven't got ( ;D ) is whether you naturalise the events (such as the War of Wroth) and creatures of Middle-earth or assume they happened as it is told.
-
This map I think, is very helpful to illustrate the location and changing landscape when referring to Middle Earth and Europe. It is very interesting to study and compare what is going on and helps to identify more, I think where ME was actually located.
http://element.ess.ucla.edu/pictures/Middle-Earth.jpg
Note that the map has been tilted anti-clockwise but it clearly shows a lot of the mountain ranges etc etc.
WOW! that has made me really sit back! :o puts a lot of things into focus!
-
This map I think, is very helpful to illustrate the location and changing landscape when referring to Middle Earth and Europe. It is very interesting to study and compare what is going on and helps to identify more, I think where ME was actually located.
http://element.ess.ucla.edu/pictures/Middle-Earth.jpg
Note that the map has been tilted anti-clockwise but it clearly shows a lot of the mountain ranges etc etc.
WOW! that has made me really sit back! :o puts a lot of things into focus!
That one is based on the one I posted previously, and guess how she got it? ::) :P
It's quite cool tho, it saves one time to have to super impose it yourself :D
Taurendil certain things are naturalized, some aren't. All of it is basically down to how you do story telling, if you want to tell a story of a time when people didn't have knowledge of the primary essences (DNA-RNA) as the basis for physical/mental traits in a living being you had to apply the appropiate narrative and explain it with magick (I believe he used the term which is rather scary as I dislike Crowley) or tales of wondrous deeds, it would simply make no sense or fit very well if Tolkien had explained certain things in a totally logical/scientifical way, if he had doneit would be a really bad sci-fi tale.
So in answer to that yes some things happened and some things are "valarized/humanized/eldarized/etc". In the ainulindale you can see for yourself that the Ainur adopt physical forms to perform certain tasks without these forms they are just an elemental force of one sort or another. ;)
-
Speaking of the maps, if we are to believe that Middle-earth existed and not more than 10,000 years ago, i.e. within mankind's memory how does it conform with the fact that present landmass of Europe haven't notably changed since that time if I'm not mistaken.
-
I believe a place like Middle Earth existed. I think some people still carry it on. I believe ancient times, with ancient races and religions, who used magic and beauty and song, was very very similar to Tolkiens idea of Middle Earth.
I just wish it was STILL like that!