The Age of the Ring (Lord of the Rings) Forum
Tolkien only Section => Tolkien => How Tolkien created Middle-Earth => Topic started by: Taurendil on April 07, 2006, 01:22:53 AM
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Elves, fairest and wisest of all people.
Does Tolkien mean that they're perfect beings and that men should try to be akin to them? Are they some ideal creatures, or just beings of his created world? What is your attitude to them?
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WOW! what a question
I don't think that Tolkien intended men to be like elves at all, no. I think he just differentiated between the two species.. merely hilighted the differences between them.
Are they perfect ? No not at all. They are a lot more peaceful than men, but not perfect. They have a strong sense of arrogance running through their veins for one thing ;)
As for whether Tolkien created elves. No he didnt. He pulled a lot of his history and background on elves from folklore, particularly that of the scandinavian countries. If you read some of the info Ive put on this board, and there is loads more.. even some of their names have been pulled from Scandinavian folklore.
As to whether you beleive that folklore is just that, or not.... I choose to beleive it isnt :)
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I agree with EG, that is exactly the point Tolkien was trying to make with Numenórė and Aragorn becoming King, that men are very different but that doesn't mean it's negative. (For instance how long they live - the gift of men is that they die.)
I would agree with EG about arrogance too - some of them are very "full of themselves", I think, in ways men are often not. And no being is perfect. However, I think they are "ideal" in some respects: respect for nature and each other; learned; gracefulness and elegance. But what Tolkien did was embody the difference races with different qualities so you can see the contrast between them.
And EG's right about the creation of elves - Tolkien took the older mythological elves and used them in his books (albeit altered slightly). I'm not that knowledgable on Scandinavian mythology, but weren't elves originally humanoid forms which were almost "semi-god-like" and were kind of like nature personified?
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Maybe as perfect as it is possible to be then? I do not think arrogance is a common feature of the elves. They're different to each other as men are. Yet if they have so many positive things and so little negative why not to take a leaf of their book? If they are in fact 'teachers' of men it would not be bad to be more closer to them.
I don't think that Tolkien intended men to be like elves at all, no. I think he just differentiated between the two species.. merely hilighted the differences between them.
But maybe he showed the differences to describe another way for men to follow? Showed the advantages and good points of the elves to identify shortcomings of men.
Yeah, he didn't created them, but after all there is no other beings that combine exactly such qualities the elves of Tolkien have I believe.
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Maybe as perfect as it is possible to be then? I do not think arrogance is a common feature of the elves. They're different to each other as men are. Yet if they have so many positive things and so little negative why not to take a leaf of their book? If they are in fact 'teachers' of men it would not be bad to be more closer to them.
well, yes I agree. We would probably be better people for being more elven, yeah!
I don't think that Tolkien intended men to be like elves at all, no. I think he just differentiated between the two species.. merely hilighted the differences between them.
But maybe he showed the differences to describe another way for men to follow? Showed the advantages and good points of the elves to identify shortcomings of men.
I dont even know if that was his intention, more that he just wanted to differentiate the species
Yeah, he didn't created them, but after all there is no other beings that combine exactly such qualities the elves of Tolkien have I believe.
Hmmm... Ive done a fair bit of reading on Elves, not just Tolkien's ones... the ones in the folklore etc. and.. Tolkien's elves are very similar to the more ancient elves in folklore. I have read one very good book, which really differentiates between the different species of elf (the human sized ones - many stories in folklore moved on from human sized elves to making them into little impish type creatures)
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*marvels at EG*....you've done your homework!!!
I don't think that elves are meant to be perfect, I mean, for a fair bit of the silmarillion they're fairly nasty pieces of work - completely ruthless and intent upon revenge (for something fairly petty in all honesty) no matter the cost.
And when Sauron starts to dominate Middle Earth - they flee back to the west, abondoning the peoples of Middle Earth to domination.
I'm not saying that elves are bad or anything - just that they're not perfect either.
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So, as far as I understand, you all assume that the Tolkien's elves are just those creatures from the mythology, though changed by him. ;)
And when Sauron starts to dominate Middle Earth - they flee back to the west, abondoning the peoples of Middle Earth to domination.
They didn't flee because of Sauron. They just grew weary of Middle-earth itself.
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So, as far as I understand, you all assume that the Tolkien's elves are just those creatures from the mythology, though changed by him. ;)
tell us your assumptions ...
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What is Tolkien World itself? It's some sort of absolute world as I imagine it. Not like our reality. I mean, take orcs for example, it's physical absolute evil, so to say. And the elves are in turn the contrary of orcs. So following this logic it appears that elves are absolute good (in general, in their nature, in origin). It's tricky matter, you see. In other words I think (or want to think) that this whole thing isn't just an amazing, detailed, brilliant and remarkable piece of mythology created by one man.
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me too! I want to think, do think the same!
I see what you are getting at re the orcs.. but they werent all bad were they. At some point in the books (and I cant remember the exact quote) when the orcs are marching to the Black Gate, in ROTK, one remarks he'd much rather be going home.....
which kind of says to me, they werent just fighting machines :-\
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Hmm.. That's an interesting quote. I'm not sure what Tolkien meant to say by this, but in his world everyone who kills any orc is a good person. I'll look this quote up sometime. :)
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And when Sauron starts to dominate Middle Earth - they flee back to the west, abondoning the peoples of Middle Earth to domination.
They didn't flee because of Sauron. They just grew weary of Middle-earth itself.
But if they were perfect - wouldn't they put the plight of Middle Earth above their own weariness?
And if anyone who kills an orc is good - orcs kill orcs :wacko: . I'd be interested to read that quote cuz it doesnt sound quite right to me. I mean, because someone killed an orc doesn't mean that they are good to my mind - it could be a selfish reason, or just killing for the sake of killing.
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And when Sauron starts to dominate Middle Earth - they flee back to the west, abondoning the peoples of Middle Earth to domination.
They didn't flee because of Sauron. They just grew weary of Middle-earth itself.
But if they were perfect - wouldn't they put the plight of Middle Earth above their own weariness?
They abandoned Middle-earth earlier than Sauron started to dominate. After all they fought against him from their awakening to the last alliance of men and elves and suffered great losses. Plus we can't deny the siege of Lothlorien and Mirkwood at the time of the War of the Ring. I think it was meant that they must depart exactly at that time. For the dominion of men was about to come. It was the time of men to prove themselves again.
And if anyone who kills an orc is good - orcs kill orcs :wacko: . I'd be interested to read that quote cuz it doesnt sound quite right to me. I mean, because someone killed an orc doesn't mean that they are good to my mind - it could be a selfish reason, or just killing for the sake of killing.
Yeah, confusing. I meant that despite that quote orcs are just evil in nature, physical materialisation of evil. Before the elves, men and others kill any orc they do not enquire as to whether that orc can be good or bad.
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I dont think that elves are perfect they just have a better understanding of how the world harmony should be and strive to acheive that to the best of their abilities.. but even they are unlikely to put the survival of their own race before any other ....
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That sounds weird taurendil.
According to that the whole thing had an agenda, at 6 p.m please leave M.E because it is the time for men to do such and such :laugh:
I think that people more often than not read literally what is in the books and not between lines, yes it is a risky business to try and interpret what is left unexplained or the "between lines". it is simply impossible to write a book to such descriptive level in which you encapsulate every single nuance of the moment and those who try tend to make boring books in my opinion, needless to say when it comes to discussing books (which is based on interpretation of and what it makes you experience) it is essential to be able to put forth contrasting arguments and be able to try and reason, doing so shows different avenues that the same subject can develop into, otherwise people become the sort of people who read a bible and quote from versicles and then spoil it for all of those involved.
I for one certainly have no interest in that kind of exchange where one person's argument is to be consider more valid than the rest for no better reason than being present in the discussion more persistently.
Anyway that was my "brief" interruption.
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Elves begun departing from Middle-earth at the end of the 1st age. In fact very few of Beleriand who survived remained in Middle-earth.
I only want to say that it is not the rising of Sauron that made them leave. It was a continuous process.
I for one certainly have no interest in that kind of exchange where one person's argument is to be consider more valid than the rest for no better reason than being present in the discussion more persistently.
Why not? If this or that argument turns out to be more convincing and persistent and approved by more people I think it is likely that it is closer to truth or 'more valid'; if I understood you rightly ;)
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That can be construed as delusion Taurendil, because nobody argues with us it doesn't mean we are right under any conventions. ;)
Majorities and persistency do not make a truth at any rate, take for example any religion, any number of people believing in something still doesn't make it an absolute truth to everyone or even more valid, does it? ;D
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Yes, perhaps I understood you wrong. Arguement is a necessary component in reaching truth in a discussion.
But let's not stray this topic from the point ::)
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It hasn't strayed, one has to define how to debate before going around doing it.
All we can do anyway is to put forth our arguments as to why we think they are or they aren't, and trust me flaws are not a sole trait of humans of course we would have to ask a proper elf to see if we are right or wrong ;D so all we can do is speculate and that means either you, me or anyone else can be wrong ;)
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All we can do anyway is to put forth our arguments as to why we think they are or they aren't, and trust me flaws are not a sole trait of humans of course we would have to ask a proper elf to see if we are right or wrong ;D so all we can do is speculate and that means either you, me or anyone else can be wrong ;)
Well, I agree with that :)