The Age of the Ring (Lord of the Rings) Forum
Off Topic Section => World Events => Topic started by: Hyllyn on February 13, 2006, 05:04:05 AM
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http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/welcome.cgi (http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/welcome.cgi)
And if it get moved to the archives you can read it here:
As my regular readers know, I've long been skeptical of the "Religion of Peace" moniker for Muslims — for at least 3,000 reasons right off the top of my head. I think the evidence is going my way this week.
The culture editor of a newspaper in Denmark suspected writers and cartoonists were engaging in self-censorship when it came to the Religion of Peace. It was subtle things, like a Danish comedian's statement, paraphrased by The New York Times, "that he had no problem urinating on the Bible but that he would not dare do the same to the Quran."
So, after verifying that his life insurance premiums were paid up, the editor expressly requested cartoons of Muhammad from every cartoonist with a Danish cartoon syndicate. Out of 40 cartoonists, only 10 accepted the invitation, most of them submitting utterly neutral drawings with no political content whatsoever.
But three cartoons made political points.
One showed Muhammad turning away suicide bombers from the gates of heaven, saying "Stop, stop — we ran out of virgins!" — which I believe was a commentary on Muslims' predilection for violence. Another was a cartoon of Muhammad with horns, which I believe was a commentary on Muslims' predilection for violence. The third showed Muhammad with a turban in the shape of a bomb, which I believe was an expression of post-industrial ennui in a secular — oops, no, wait: It was more of a commentary on Muslims' predilection for violence.
In order to express their displeasure with the idea that Muslims are violent, thousands of Muslims around the world engaged in rioting, arson, mob savagery, flag-burning, murder and mayhem, among other peaceful acts of nonviolence.
Muslims are the only people who make feminists seem laid-back.
The little darlings brandish placards with typical Religion of Peace slogans, such as: "Behead Those Who Insult Islam," "Europe, you will pay, extermination is on the way" and "Butcher those who mock Islam." They warn Europe of their own impending 9/11 with signs that say: "Europe: Your 9/11 will come" — which is ironic, because they almost had me convinced the Jews were behind the 9/11 attack.
The rioting Muslims claim they are upset because Islam prohibits any depictions of Muhammad — though the text is ambiguous on beheadings, suicide bombings and flying planes into skyscrapers.
The belief that Islam forbids portrayals of Muhammad is recently acquired. Back when Muslims created things, rather than blowing them up, they made paintings, frescoes, miniatures and prints of Muhammad.
But apparently the Quran is like the Constitution: It's a "living document," capable of sprouting all-new provisions at will. Muslims ought to start claiming the Quran also prohibits indoor plumbing, to explain their lack of it.
Other interpretations of the Quran forbid images of humans or animals, which makes even a child's coloring book blasphemous. That's why the Taliban blew up those priceless Buddhist statues, bless their innocent, peace-loving little hearts.
Largely unnoticed in this spectacle is the blinding fact that one nation is missing from the long list of Muslim countries (by which I mean France and England) with hundreds of crazy Muslims experiencing bipolar rage over some cartoons: Iraq. Hey — maybe this democracy thing does work! The barbaric behavior of Europe's Muslims suggests that the European welfare state may not be attracting your top-notch Muslims.
Making the rash assumption for purposes of discussion that Islam is a religion and not a car-burning cult, even a real religion can't go bossing around other people like this.
Catholics aren't short on rules, but they couldn't care less if non-Catholics use birth control. Conservative Jews have no interest in forbidding other people from mixing meat and dairy. Protestants don't make a peep about other people eating food off one another's plates. (Just stay away from our plates — that's disgusting.)
But Muslims think they can issue decrees about what images can appear in newspaper cartoons. Who do they think they are, liberals?
COPYRIGHT 2006 ANN COULTER
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It's also completely a one sided uneducated guess at trying to prove a point.
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This is a very sensitive matter, and i dobut it should be discussed tbh
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Muslims are not all the same as all of the people aren't. Seeing those car-burners, ambassy-destroyers etc makes you think that all the muslims are like them. In my opinion this is wrong. Those people are criminals and should be treated as such.
Picturing an animal or eating pork for instance is just another thing! But portrayal of the God, let
alone in caricatures, does offend muslims. That's where the so-called political correctness is essential to my way of thinking.
Though, for many but not all people of the eastern islam culture it's difficult to understand that all people of Europe or Denmark can't be guilty for they live in precious different world.
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Its so stupid when these Muslim's get 'offended' by a cartoon.
The Cartoon was NOT at fault - The Muslim's are. They look for any excuse to start a riot, they're evil, murderous monters. By rights they should not be in Britain anyway, but when they in OUR country, telling US they're going to 'behead us'...thats five hundred steps too far.
These people should be killed, but failing that, shoved in jail for an eternity.
If someone puts a cartoon of say, a Wiccan God, I wouldn't use that as an excuse to start a massive riot. Neither would most people.
But these Muslims are the scum of the Earth. The Police should arrest them (or petrol-bomb the lot of them)
And when I say Muslims, I mean the extremists. I am aware there are perfectly nice Muslims out there.
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.... :o *jaw drops to floor* I thought I had a strong opinion.
..... I do however believe that burning a building down was a little too far. I respect the other muslims who took to a calm walk through the streets with banners NOT threatening death.... I think they went about the issue a lot better :)
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Its so stupid when these Muslim's get 'offended' by a cartoon.
The Cartoon was NOT at fault - The Muslim's are. They look for any excuse to start a riot, they're evil, murderous monters. By rights they should not be in Britain anyway, but when they in OUR country, telling US they're going to 'behead us'...thats five hundred steps too far.
These people should be killed, but failing that, shoved in jail for an eternity.
If someone puts a cartoon of say, a Wiccan God, I wouldn't use that as an excuse to start a massive riot. Neither would most people.
But these Muslims are the scum of the Earth. The Police should arrest them (or petrol-bomb the lot of them)
And when I say Muslims, I mean the extremists. I am aware there are perfectly nice Muslims out there.
Muslims should be put to death?? Muslims are scum of the Earth?? I think that the term 'muslims' by no means can be applied when you mean extemists. After all even among extremists not all are muslims. Terrorism and extremism don't depend on nationality or religion, this is a mith.
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"Only in a world with religion can good people do evil things". No religion is anymore evil than another, they're all pretty crap. Organised religion is all complete bollocks. It's times like these that I think Marx had the right idea, suppress the damn thing and use common sense.
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Aye, but Marx was only a theorist and attempts to suspress religion in the soviet union more less failed ;)
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I think it is important to not over generalise really.
I can understand how upset you feel Icy and in some ways I can agree with your sentiments BUT I also have some friends who are Muslim and they are not like that at all. It is the extremists you are talking about and most decent Muslims are appalled by their actions.
You know, someone said something very interesting the other day which set me to thinking. They said that the Muslims are going through their own 'Middle Age' and their own 'inquisition'. When you think about it, it does mirror how Christianity was centuries ago. I thought it was an interesting parallel to draw.
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Before anyone rants back at me, I put at the end of my post I meant extremist Muslims. No matter what you thinhk I meant, I stated what I meant :)
And I am sorry, but I am not at fault when I say I don't want these people in my country.
A good example.
Abu Hamza, the vile pig who should be sent straight into an active volcano. His wife is given, I think, two council houses and a few hundred pounds of money a month. Why?
I don't get that, and I was born here, I'm a British Citizen. Why can't I get a free house and money given to me?
Wait, my husband isn't in jail for being a terror mongerer, is he? Oh well
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Why just not to say terrorists or extremists? Why to use 'muslims'?
And I am sorry, but I am not at fault when I say I don't want these people in my country.
A good example.
Abu Hamza, the vile pig who should be sent straight into an active volcano. His wife is given, I think, two council houses and a few hundred pounds of money a month. Why?
I don't get that, and I was born here, I'm a British Citizen. Why can't I get a free house and money given to me?
Wait, my husband isn't in jail for being a terror mongerer, is he? Oh well
When you say 'these people' do you mean extremists or muslims?
I agree with you about that example, the UK has definitely wrong policy of immigration. Extremists must be excluded from society.
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I agree with you about that example, the UK has definitely wrong policy of immigration. Extremists must be excluded from society.
[Pretends to be Jim and Phil]
That in itself is rubbish and most uneducated and not short of being extremist in itself.[/Finished Pretending]
Man pretending that stank :laugh:
I think the exercise here is to see if people can actually make use of their freedom of expression without it starting a war.
That person whom Beleriel quotes is me, I do think that they are going through their own Inquisition at an entirely different time. Not that if it was the other way round the West would fare any better but we all know that after the grip of religion is broken on a State then most enlightening things happen.
It is only since the Church and organized religion in the west declined when we started to leave what people considered as the 'Dark Ages' and it is not because of the "Barbarians" that they were dark, but because of the oppression of religion (See Galileo and Copernico for an example of the bigotry of Organized religion in the West).
So I don't think it is right whatever their religion decrees to try and pretend we are walking on egg shells so as not to offend them. Especially being over here they should show a level of respect for the hospitality they receive no matter how bad it be.
I would like to think that to most muslims (it isn't the case as I know a fair few and went to school with a few as well who invited me along to their houses) there's a way in which we can treat them that doesn't have to imply we being inferior to them, as many of them by default consider us as infidels and therefore not worthy of respect or consideration, in fact we do not cause any offence if we don't attract their attention, otherwise we offend their every credo.
Only a handful of them have shown me that it isn't that way, but then again they had been born from Muslim parents in Venezuela and fully embraced the culture, so I wouldn't know about absolutes in this case.
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"Only in a world with religion can good people do evil things". No religion is anymore evil than another, they're all pretty crap. Organised religion is all complete bollocks. It's times like these that I think Marx had the right idea, suppress the damn thing and use common sense.
Abso-bloody-lutely! I couldn't agree more!
Personally I feel that although it is somehow "against" their wishes for there to be depictions of Mohammad (or depictions of Mohammad as a terrorist), I do think they have taken it as an excuse to attack the West, yet again. The author of that text makes a valid point - other religions don't go off on one when people do things that disagree with their feelings (although I heard a Catholic guy in Horsham yesterday saying that lesbianism was an abomination - although he wasn't rioting).
I also think that these people who have taken it as an opportunity to burn flags and the such like should remember and recognise our beliefs and rights - and that includes freedom of speech. They should have to accept that our values and societies are different to theirs (shame some Western governments don't do the same to them which is part of the problem), and that means that if a cartoonist wants to make a political point, he can and should.
I do agree, however, with the editor, who, even though he was Danish, made some valid points which can be applied to the UK. That is, Islam is sheltered from political attacks and points for some reason. (Although it seems as if everyone is apart from white, atheist, homosexual men.)
I also think Icy has (inadvertantly) raised a good point. That is that people in the UK get annoyed with Islam as a whole because they see these terrorist and extremists and people burning flags on the telly, but this somehow gets connected with immigration issues in the UK and how our "culture" is being destroyed by Muslims.
I think this thread should keep off the "Muslims are bad" and just focus on these cartoons...
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Thats almost impossible, as the cartoons are directed to Islam, how can you steer away from it? ???
And why did I say Muslim's instead of extremists? Because I wanted too :) If I state at the end of my post that I did not mean all Muslims, then whats the problem? Lets stick to the debate and not what I said and what I meant, yes?
If these extremists (better word?) want to cause riots, burn flags and threaten Europe, fair enough....just DON'T do it in our countries! Get out, go back to where you come from...THEN have a moan.
I think thats fair, don't you?
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If these extremists (better word?) want to cause riots, burn flags and threaten Europe, fair enough....just DON'T do it in our countries! Get out, go back to where you come from...THEN have a moan.
I think thats fair, don't you?
Fair that is. I agree. :)
Personally I feel that although it is somehow "against" their wishes for there to be depictions of Mohammad (or depictions of Mohammad as a terrorist), I do think they have taken it as an excuse to attack the West, yet again. The author of that text makes a valid point - other religions don't go off on one when people do things that disagree with their feelings (although I heard a Catholic guy in Horsham yesterday saying that lesbianism was an abomination - although he wasn't rioting).
It's their nature and culture that makes them go off, and the intellectual level of those people. That's why that people're offended and angry.
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If these extremists (better word?) want to cause riots, burn flags and threaten Europe, fair enough....just DON'T do it in our countries! Get out, go back to where you come from...THEN have a moan.
I think thats fair, don't you?
Does it make such a difference where they burn the flags? Whether they burn the flag down your street or in their country of origin, the sentiment remains the same, doesn't it?
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Why do people always assume someone burning a flag is a gesture that they want violence? Flag burning has a much deeper meaning when you think about it. Burning a flag is burning the bonds that bind us to nationhood. It is nations that war with each other, people are just the people who get caught in the cross fire for political gain. When you think about it, destroying nations would be a good thing. The sooner we realise that we are all humans and we are all the same, reguardless of race, creed or location in the world, the better.
Oh and also, what if they're born in Britain? That makes them British so what other country are they going to go back to but the country they're currently situated in?
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Why do people always assume someone burning a flag is a gesture that they want violence? Flag burning has a much deeper meaning when you think about it. Burning a flag is burning the bonds that bind us to nationhood. It is nations that war with each other, people are just the people who get caught in the cross fire for political gain. When you think about it, destroying nations would be a good thing. The sooner we realise that we are all humans and we are all the same, reguardless of race, creed or location in the world, the better.
Oh and also, what if they're born in Britain? That makes them British so what other country are they going to go back to but the country they're currently situated in?
A flag is symbolic of a country, a symbol of national identity held up to the world - by burning it you are effectively saying you want nothing to do with that country and hate their values and beliefs.
It's never been an issue in this country, I think, to burn a flag - maybe because in comparison with other countries, we aren't very patriotic at all.
Patriotism in the USA is very important indeed, and that is why they consider it such a big issue to burn the flag (even to extent of trying to amend the Constitution).
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Patriotism is stupid. Why die for your country when you can let someone else die for theirs instead? Never understood that whole American patriotism thing anyway. The land wasn't even theirs in the first place. I know no land belongs to anyone in the first place but America is often trumpeted as the most patriotic of nations. I guess they're just paranoid and think that any moment the lands they enslaved millions to tame will be taken from them.
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Wow...ouch...I thank you, as an American.
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*claps*
Blaen, that was brilliant. :) LOL! :bd:
The majority of my problems with the reactions to these cartoons is the fact that the cartoons depict connections between the Islamic faith, and violence- and then a few yahoos proceed to prove writers image by rioting in protest!
It is a shame that there are people out there that don't know their head from their arse when it comes to dealing and reacting to this sort of thing, because more often than not, it all ends in tears for these yahoos.
I'm Irish, and in the (false) 'country' I currently live in (Northern Ireland) I've endured alot of finger pointing, witnessed and heard alot of sectarian prejudice and taken alot of abuse in the street for being who I am.....especially in regard to appearance.
Point is, I'm not about to start a riot and burn anyone's flag for the sake of revenge, or for the sake of provokation- it'd only prove a point to the other side; their point; and not only that, but of course, to be so easily offended by minor cultural jibes would be weak on my part.
One thing that I can't stand though is when a side in any disagreement of ideology take it upon themselves to provoke in a very serious way the other side in an attempt to provoke rioting in order to put a spin on the acts as 'nothing more than that side's prediliction for violence' as is so often the case. The main example of this that I can see is in this so-called country during the *marching season*.....Loyalist pyres with Irish flags, Celtic flags, a mural of the hunger-strikers and the name of the 15 year old a gang of Loyalists beaten to death this Summer being set alight immediately springs to mind as an example of why you could understand rioting.....in certain circumstances.
The difference? The fact that a satirical cartoon could be aimed at anyone without directly harming or directly damaging anyone; satirical cartoons are drawn of EVERY kind of person on this planet.....the stakes become higher when it is an actual threat or act of direct provokation.
This is why I don't see the cartoons as anything more than a stupid thing to do, but harmless.....I've seen direct provokation, I've seen reason to riot- and a cartoon certainly is not just that.
On a smaller scale, I'm also not about to burn Burberry factories down in retaliation for chavs provoking me by saying 'I'll knaak yer ballix in!' or something to such charming effect and generally making things difficult for me for being who I am.....because you know; some things in life have to be taken with salt- if by some small chance a day of conflict comes with these types, that day will be met with great rage and force; but the chances of fighting a human mouthpiece are small if you're careful.....lol! :fr:
I think the main point here is that people the world over need to calm the hell down, realise that they are not the most important person/people in the world and come down off their pedestal.....this isn't Medievil times where battles are fought and minor insults were rewarded with death- maybe people should pull their heads out of their arses long enough to realise that we, on this planet, are supposed to work together to better it; not squabble like children as nations, hide behind our borders and mistrust what is different simply because of the human brain's uncannily strange ability to generate 'opinions.'
The fighting, bickering and whining needs to stop- but at what point people realise that I'm afraid to say is unknown.
(*For those who don't know; the Northern Ireland marching season, is a point in time during the Summer, from June to August where the Orange Order, a group of Loyalist fanatics consistantly plan marches to remember their heritage by marching down Catholic Nationalist areas in order to provoke tension, to make themselves seem superior and of course to prove a point- this brings the place to a standstill, as we're often dealing with riots and territory battles in the aftermath of the main marches. Not a good time for a Nationalist to be around, let me assure you!* :P)
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*claps*
Blaen, that was brilliant. :) LOL! :bd:
The majority of my problems with the reactions to these cartoons is the fact that the cartoons depict connections between the Islamic faith, and violence- and then a few yahoos proceed to prove writers image by rioting in protest!
I think the main point here is that people the world over need to calm the hell down, realise that they are not the most important person/people in the world and come down off their pedestal.....this isn't Medievil times where battles are fought and minor insults were rewarded with death- maybe people should pull their heads out of their arses long enough to realise that we, on this planet, are supposed to work together to better it; not squabble like children as nations, hide behind our borders and mistrust what is different simply because of the human brain's uncannily strange ability to generate 'opinions.'
Quite honestly, I must say that I agree. Believe it or not, Muslims are not the only group to get satirized or whatever. And yet some of them (as well as many people who are not of any religious faith) seem to think otherwise. And then come the riots (so peaceful...) and the news reports, and then the accusations, and then the eventual reasoning that some political leader (George Bush, Tony Blair, or anyone else...probably Ghandi (sp?) if he was still alive...) actually created the plague by wishing very hard on a star.
Please. ::)
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Indeed Edge, I must agree.
People just take things so seriously, and no one any more seems to have a sense of humour. Ok, a Cartoon was made about ya - get over it!
People need to realise that rioting and arsing about is a waste of time, and life is to short to have so much anger and hatred in you.
Religion should be eradicated. Religion is what causes hatred - it doesn't save anyone, it doesn't help anyone...it just seperates people. Muslim's, Christian's, Jehovah's Witnesses....all of them are as bad as one another. They can't seem to accept anyone who is different to themselves. I've been shouted at by loads of people from different religions, just because I have a different belief to them!
Religion has caused all of this hatred, violence, anger. And I think it's about time we get rid of it.
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I don't agree with you on that point, Icy. See, I'm a Christian, and the last time I checked, Christians aren't supposed to scream and yell and rant and bomb people if they are not agreed with. I'm sorry you've had that kind of experience with other Christians. I strongly believe what I believe, but I wouldn't scream at you. :)
The problem with eradicating religion is that religion is a basic human right and freedom. If you take that one away, then others are sure to follow (such as freedom of speech...I should know, it's happening over here :dry:...) The problem comes when people overreact. Riots over cartoons do nothing but prove the cartoons are right.
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Christianity isn't blameless either, mind you. Was it not the Church, who killed over 100,000 innocent people, because they did Witchcraft (apparantly). Is it not the Christian Bible which says Witchcraft is wrong? Is it not the Christian Bible which says 'to not worship any other God but me"?
All religions based on a book is flawed, as the books were originally stories, which were, for some reason, taken literally.
Just because I'm Pagan, I'm a heathen, I've been told! By numerous people, not just Christian's!
I'm not saying Christians are like this, IE individuals, but the religions history as a whole.
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Sadly, throughout history The Church (as it's called) has been mistaken for actual Christianity, which it's not. Yes, God does say the we should have no other gods before Him. That's what I believe. Just...The Church as the history books (the badly written history books, I must say, not only in religious matters but matters such as basic grammar lol) represent it is vastly different from true Christianity, which is based on the action of one Person, not a book, because the word "Christian" means "little Christ" which began as an insult term rather than an identification as it is today...anyway. (LOL...you've just helped me get ready for part of my History of Civilization test...)
I'm just sorry that Christians (or anyone, for that matter...) have screamed in your face instead of speaking in love.
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Your the first Christian I have met who hasn't screamed in my face for being a Witch, and I've met loads of Christian's. It just goes to show that your in the minority there.
But I feel for my Sisters who died years ago, because the Church were just scraed that women were actually stronger than men, and the CHurch, being a very masculine thing, had to stamp it out. Which I find sad, and the ancient religions, such as Pagans, are the only religions that truly show equality with men and women.
Hence why I think Christianity, Islam...all these new religions, are very outdated now, even though they are newer than the ancient religions!
And what I really don't understand, is why can't you worship any other god but him? Worshipping a God anyway is only a security thing, so who cares what God's name you say? Surely a God which imposes such a rule, is very nasty and must have had a power-trip?
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hea‧then [hee-thuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural -thens, -then, adjective
–noun
1. an unconverted individual of a people that do not acknowledge the God of the Bible; a person who is neither a Jew, Christian, nor Muslim; pagan.
So erm actually Icy, that's not an insult per se. Of course this is just a technicality, and I'm sure that wherever you heard it, it was probably meant to be insulting.
The church of history was just the most visible form of crhistianity. As rioters/threatening terrorists are the most visible form of Islam today. That doesn't make it the generally accepted view of such a religion. Throughout history, there have been many Christians who have rebelled against the Church and its decrees, for various reasons. Many are probably in line with the general teachings of any religion.
Not worshipping any other God also comes into play from a religous perspective. The commandments of a religion obviously apply only to a follower of that religion. So Christians, Muslims, Jews etc can not worship any other God. As the basis of these beliefs is that there is in fact no other God, it follows that worshipping any other is contradictory for that religion, and therefore not indicative as such of any power-trip.
There isn't actually anything otudated about the religions of the Book, so to speak. What is outdated is the interpretation and the manner used to follow the teachings. Religion is not the cause for any strife. Humans are completely capable of such atrocities all by themselves. Religion has simply for centuries provided a convenient excuse, and with the sway it holds over those who believe in it, a convenient tool with which to stir up passions. Where there is an absence of religion, the void is filled by patriotism, or some other such emotion-stirring vehicle.
But back to the point, I still maintain for any that will accept it, that the riots that are seen are a social phenomenon and not a relious one. How many working/studying people have time to go out in the middle of the day and burn effigies? How many people whose current lives are not drowned in a number of problems with no visible solution actually go marching through the streets whenever any minor person demands it of them? How many do any such things unless they're part of some union 8-)
The great wars over religion ended, and political wars began. Now we see a merger of the two because for mankind to live peacefully, it must accept the faults within. Within its society, its structure and the person. Such dark places that aree too dreadful to even look into are avoided by the sort of mindless war-mongering you see now. And the reason Islam plays such a predominant part here is that "Muslim countries" are generally more impoverished with a large population of people underwhelmed by their leaders policies. If they could focus this anger, they might be able to do something. Since it is not in the interest of any such leader to allow this, expect to see such rioting for a long long time. And occassionally, enough brainwashing rabble-babble can galvanise certain gullible individuals to take the next few steps over the cliff, into the abyss.