The Age of the Ring (Lord of the Rings) Forum
Off Topic Section => World Events => Topic started by: Waelith on January 02, 2006, 06:36:32 PM
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*Quote from an Amnesty International website*
"The death penalty is the ultimate cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment.
It violates the right to life.
It is irrevocable and can be inflicted on the innocent. It has never been shown to deter crime more effectively than other punishments.
As an organization dedicated to the protection and promotion of human rights, Amnesty International (AI) works for an end to executions and the abolition of the death penalty everywhere.
The progress has been dramatic. When AI convened an International Conference on the Death Penalty in Stockholm, Sweden, in 1977, just 16 countries had abolished capital punishment for all crimes. Today the figure stands at 86.
Each year since 1997 the United Nations Commission on Human Rights has passed a resolution calling on countries that have not abolished the death penalty to establish a moratorium on executions. The latest resolution, adopted in April 2005, was co-sponsored by 81 UN member states, five more than in 2004 and the highest number ever.
AI issues updated information and news of developments, and maintains a library of reports on the death penalty worldwide.
AI is a member of the World Coalition against the Death Penalty, a coalition that unites national and international human rights organizations, bar associations, trade unions and local and regional authorities in an effort to rid the world of the death penalty. "
What are your opinions on the Death Penalty...Are you for, or against? State your reasons why.
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I agree with the Death Penalty.
Why?
Becase its the fairest sentence there is. I know innocent people can get killed by it, I'm not saying thats right. But if someone murders or rapes someone, they deserve death.
Well, ideally they deserve slow, slow torture which lasts years and when they beg for death....they don't get it...but still...
No one will EVER agree with me there. However, I agree with the death penalty.
And when anyone argues with me, just stop and think. What if someone killed the person you love most in the whole world? Completely cold-blooded?
Honestly, what do they deserve? I believe if there is hard evidence against someone for murdering or raping someone, then they need death. They deserve death.
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Right so basically you agree with an eye for an eye?
Because someone has murdered someone, they do not deserve to die themselves, no one is the judge of that, and no one has the right to be the judge of that, not a posh upper class judge, not a politician, not society. What is good and evil?
Capital punishment is one of the most backward answer of some societies. 400 years ago you would be burnt at a stake for not being christian, or a muslim in the middle east, or for being a jew, or wiccan, or else you can think of. Thats a form capital punishment, state murder, it's inhumane and yet they still saw it as right and for the good of god, etc etc. Religious morality still plays a huge part of it.
I've stopped and thought about it before, I wouldn't want them to recieve capital punishment, it deals with nothing, it solves no answers on why the person done it, and when you bring in the few like that Williams fella last month, he was helping deal with the situation ulimtately (something white old conservative politicians can't do and never will be able to do), yet again christian morality and state murder played their part.
You are no one to wish death on someone, condemning someone to death and having it carried out is also murder as far as I'm concerned.
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Death is an easy way out as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather see someone spend the rest of their nautural life regretting what they'd done than than just seem them simply killed. Death should not be dealt out as a punishment. Killing a criminal solves nothing, the only thing it saves is money clothing and feeding that particular prisoner and killing someone for money is no justice. I always here people complain "Why should my taxes feed and clothe murderers?" These people fail to realise if we executed everyone who had commited a murder the dent in our taxes would be small to say the least. The government would still raise taxes anyway.
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth? The fact that anyone would hand out death so easily due to a 2000 year old principal is appauling. The EU has the right idea in adopting an anti-death penalty stance. The death penalty does not prevent crime at all. In the states in America that enforce the death penalty rates of violent crimes continue to rise so it's clear that as a preventative it does nothing. As with any issue we need to tackle the causes of the problems, not hand out more severe punishments.
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Right so basically you agree with an eye for an eye?
Because someone has murdered someone, they do not deserve to die themselves, no one is the judge of that, and no one has the right to be the judge of that, not a posh upper class judge, not a politician, not society. What is good and evil?
Capital punishment is one of the most backward answer of some societies. 400 years ago you would be burnt at a stake for not being christian, or a muslim in the middle east, or for being a jew, or wiccan, or else you can think of. Thats a form capital punishment, state murder, it's inhumane and yet they still saw it as right and for the good of god, etc etc. Religious morality still plays a huge part of it.
I've stopped and thought about it before, I wouldn't want them to recieve capital punishment, it deals with nothing, it solves no answers on why the person done it, and when you bring in the few like that Williams fella last month, he was helping deal with the situation ulimtately (something white old conservative politicians can't do and never will be able to do), yet again christian morality and state murder played their part.
You are no one to wish death on someone, condemning someone to death and having it carried out is also murder as far as I'm concerned.
I have every right to wish death on someone who took the life of another. Its fair.
So your saying its fair to keep the sorry excuses for humans in jail for the rest of their life, where they're fed, watered and cared for? Gah I don't see the logic.
Its like that Model, Sally Anne, who got murdered a few months ago. She was a young, pretty girl with the world at her feet, and some low-life took that from her. Your saying he deserves to live?
And there's no point keeping them alive so they can regret it. If these people can kill in cold blood, they can't possibly feel emotion like everyone else. They'll just laugh at the rest of us, sat in their jail cell.
And we're not talking about 400 years ago Jim, or differing religions. I am fully aware of my Religions history, and I am fully aware of the witches who were hung, burned, crushed...
I agree that isn't right, but I'm talking about the people who deserve death here, not the religious history of capital punishment.
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And at which point along the multiple crimes committed would you say the death penalty would no longer be a needed punishment.
Where would that borderline be?
As Jim said, no one should have the right to condemn someone to death. There is always the risk of that person being innocent. But even if they are guilty, then how can one person or group of people deliver such a penalty, without becoming more like the perpetrator of the crime.
It may ease your conscience to condemn them to death, but in doing this you're just committing another murder.
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If you even read my first post, I DID SAY that they should be condemned to death if there is hard evidence against them.
Honestly, human frigging rights has gone too far.
So Gollum, if I killed the person you loved most in the world, you wouldn't mind if I got a few years and then lived my life?
The death penalty is the only way to deal with these murderers. Its not murder to kill a murderer...its justice.
Plus, the death penalty is a deterrent. If people know that murderers and rapists died when caught, they'd think twice about doing it, wouldn't they?
I just think, if an evil person does something as bad as end a persons life, they have to die.
I am honestly scared at the fact there are people alive in the world that can do that.
Without the death penalty, its basically saying to the public "Do what you want, kill a hundred people, don't worry, nothing will happen to you, you#ll just get a few years then you'll be out! Heck, we might even take you on holiday for free!"
Gah...I hate this world sometimes
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I agree with the death penalty ONLY when it can be proven 100% that the person is guilty.
If someone was to murder someone I loved, I wouldn't want to see that person serve a few years in prison, then be free to live their life again. I believe that a life sentence should mean that person will spend the rest of their life in prison. That way, they would be paying the price for taking another life, by not being able to live their own. And not every criminal feels remorse for their crime; murderers are out there living conscience-free.
One thing is feel very strongly about here is paedophiles. I think the death penalty should exist in every country for them because they are so sick and dangerous, I do not believe they can be 'cured' and the thought that such evil individuals are alive and walking this earth makes me angry. They are the lowest type of scum and deserve to die.
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If you even read my first post, I DID SAY that they should be condemned to death if there is hard evidence against them.
I agree with the death penalty ONLY when it can be proven 100% that the person is guilty.
But evidence can sometimes be faked, or people framed. What then?
You'd send innocent people to their deaths?
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WOW. Jesus Icy, you'd put Maggie Thatcher to shame with your extreme-right-wing views. :o
Heh, perhaps its oul Bruce Dicky's Tory roots. :P ;)
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I have every right to wish death on someone who took the life of another. Its fair.
So your saying its fair to keep the sorry excuses for humans in jail for the rest of their life, where they're fed, watered and cared for? Gah I don't see the logic.
Its like that Model, Sally Anne, who got murdered a few months ago. She was a young, pretty girl with the world at her feet, and some low-life took that from her. Your saying he deserves to live?
And there's no point keeping them alive so they can regret it. If these people can kill in cold blood, they can't possibly feel emotion like everyone else. They'll just laugh at the rest of us, sat in their jail cell.
And we're not talking about 400 years ago Jim, or differing religions. I am fully aware of my Religions history, and I am fully aware of the witches who were hung, burned, crushed...
I agree that isn't right, but I'm talking about the people who deserve death here, not the religious history of capital punishment.
Right, so what gives you the right to condemn someone to death? Whats fair about it? I fail to see what is fair about that. But more less, yeah, I am saying to keep them in jail where they are watered and fed like plants for the rest of their lives, a life is a life regardless of what they done.
I'll put it simpler, the Birmingham 6. The Judge said quite famously that he would give them the death sentence in a second if it was still in practise - and it turns out all 6 of them where completely innocent. Now according to you, these 6 people should have been dead, since we where all so sure at the time they done the bombing ::)
We are talking 400 years ago, we are talking 1000 years ago, and we are talking today. State murder is a terrible thing and its happened throughout human history, why should it continue? Because someone feels that they have the higher moral stance? Bollocks. The religious history of capital punishment is important and I'll keep bringing it up untill the day Religion is truely seperate from state, which is a long long time away.
Human rights hasn't gone far enough when people are still being locked up for nothing in the farce of freedom of speech in western countries, and it's even worse in other countries.
Without the death penalty, its basically saying to the public "Do what you want, kill a hundred people, don't worry, nothing will happen to you, you#ll just get a few years then you'll be out! Heck, we might even take you on holiday for free!"
Hardly. Have you ever seen the inside of a jail? People don't go on hunger strikes for proper rights, or try and break out for no reason.
Basically; Why kill the killer, when you can begin to understand the underlying problem and prevent it properly.
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Actually yes, I have seen the inside of a Jail, and I also happen to have a horrible person in my family inside for, probably the rest of this life. I do know.
I'll put it simpler, the Birmingham 6. The Judge said quite famously that he would give them the death sentence in a second if it was still in practise - and it turns out all 6 of them where completely innocent. Now according to you, these 6 people should have been dead, since we where all so sure at the time they done the bombing
Its a problem, agreed, but I don't want to live in a world where there are real murderers and rapists wandering around.
And please do not compare me to any Tory or Maggie Thatcher. I'm Welsh, and we pride our selves on hating the woman :P I'll convert Brucey one day :D I agree, I do have very strong, and sometimes rather....contreversial opinions :angel: But, I just say it as I see it.
Anyway, back on topic...
I ask you just one question, and please answer it.
What gives the murderer the right to condemn someone to Death?
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None. Murder is a terrible crime and so is rape. But what gives us the right to sentence them to death. You say you agree with the death penalty if it can been 100% proved they're guilty. In law if you are found guilty by a jury of your peeps you are GUILTY. There are no ifs and buts, you are guilty by law. You get appeals and what not but after being found guilty you are guilty until that is revoked by law. You can't prove 100% that someone is guilty, even in our legal system someone found guilty is found guilty because of evidence, but evidence (No matter how compelling) can never be 100% infalliable. Thus it is impossible to prove someone 100% guilty. Even DNA evidence is not infallible, it just has a higher likely hood of not being wrong.
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What gives the murderer the right to condemn someone to Death?
Two wrongs never make a right.
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Right so basically you agree with an eye for an eye?
basicaly yes! if you shoot someone you should be shot in the same place as they were n in the same conditions!
like if they werebeaten the crap out of then the person who shot them will be beaten the crap out of then told to run n then shot!
i beleave it will bring serious crims down if the death penalty was brought back!
and i do beleave that public exicutions should be brought back too!
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Right so basically you agree with an eye for an eye?
basicaly yes! if you shoot someone you should be shot in the same place as they were n in the same conditions!
like if they werebeaten the crap out of then the person who shot them will be beaten the crap out of then told to run n then shot!
i beleave it will bring serious crims down if the death penalty was brought back!
and i do beleave that public exicutions should be brought back too!
And thats why I hope people with ideas like that never get in power :)
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Its a shame people like me and Angelus don't come into Power. And you know what, this debate has made me want to go for it now :)
I like to be fair. Death for a murderer is fair. I want children, and I don't want my children living in a world where murderers are let off, just shoved in jails (which are over-popukated anyway)
Honestly, I dunno how anyone can not agree with the Death Penalty.
I just hope no one you know gets murdered so you have to find out how hard it is to live with the murderer being alive.
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It’s difficult not to agree with the both points of view. Yes, capital punishment doesn’t solve anything, nor brings any benefit. You can’t bring back to life the killed person. It’s just revenge. Who are we to deprive someone of his life whatever bad he/she would be? If we are to believe in God, it is his privilege to deal out death, I suppose. Guiltiness almost never can be proved by 100 per cent. Maybe it is fair to deprive someone of life, but what good would it bring? Fairness for the sake of fairness? The person of course must be expelled from society, not to bring any more harm. With death penalty there is another peril, in my opinion. Adopting it leads to more violent society.
Maybe it’s out of place but remember what Tolkien himself thought on the point:
‘Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.’
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And if we don't believe in God?
Being Wiccan, I believe in the Three-Fold Law. Whatever bad you do, expect it three times over. A murderer kills...by RIGHTS he deserves three times that pain, that end.
Believing in a God to deal out judgements is just a way to avoid it. Its a way to think, "Well, I don't want to make this decision, so we'll lock the murderer up for life, then God can deal with it."
Are you honestly saying Myra Hindley, or whatever her name was, didn't deserve death? Your saying the guy who killed Sally Anne should live the rest of his life?
Your saying if I killed someone know, you wouldn't mind me living? What if I killed your girlfriend, boyfriend, mother, father...son daughter? Thats ok is it? You wouldn't mind if I just got locked in a cell, being fed and watered?
No wonder people do murder, its not like its difficult anymore, you don't get much of a punishment.
I can GARUNTEE if the Death Penalty came back into force, it would half the murders.
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Is death an appropriate punishment? Isn’t life time imprisonment a torment?
I can GARUNTEE if the Death Penalty came back into force, it would half the murders.
I think it wouldn’t. Where I live capital punishment was stopped a few years ago, yet a number of murders didn’t increased.
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Your saying if I killed someone know, you wouldn't mind me living? What if I killed your girlfriend, boyfriend, mother, father...son daughter? Thats ok is it? You wouldn't mind if I just got locked in a cell, being fed and watered?
Fed and Watered? Not much of a life is it. Like a pet kept in a cage, occasionally taken out for exercise than locked back up. Not much of a life. If you killed someone I loved I wouldn't want you to die. Prison is not a nice place believe it or not. The way some people go on about it when arguing for the death penalty you expect it to be a 5 star hotel. You must also consider that not all murders are the same. If you follow the whole "eye for an eye" principle than even knows convicted of accidental death have to die. They have killed and ergo must die themselves. You keep making references to terrible murders. The people who kill that ruthlessly and with such callous disregard WILL spend their whole lives in prison. Those who murder and are released (Though I think anyone commiting 1st Degree murder, that is murder planned in advance, should all be given life and by life I mean imprisonment for the rest of their life not some 24 years or whatever) don't simply walk the streets looking for another victim. They are monitored for the rest of their lives. There of course have been cases of people being released from jail to kill again, but that is a failure of the authorities to not have recognised that these people needed to be imprisoned for life. Does the criminal justice system need to be improved? Like hell it does. IS the death penalty the answer? No.
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Basically; Why kill the killer, when you can begin to understand the underlying problem and prevent it properly.
Because you really think that all criminals, regardless of the crime they've committed, can be'cured' so that they'll never reoffend?
Sorry but that is completely wrong. Certain types of criminal NEVER feel remorse, look at the lads who killed James Bulger in 1993. No remorse there, they simply don't care. They are my age, and one has just had a baby with a girl who has no idea who he is. You think he deserves that? I hope he now understands how much suffering he caused to James' family. They have to live out the rest of their lives without the most precious thing they ever had. I don't think I could live like that without my kids.
Fair enough, if a criminal truly repents then fine. They can do their time, and when they are released they will suufer with the guilt of what they did.
Anyway the point I'm trying to make is what is the point in keeping someone alive in our jails, leeching taxpayers money to buy them PS2s and all the little luxuries that criminals get. If someone is never going to feel any type of remorse, then what is the point of keeping them alive? They will eventually get released due to the fact that this country cannot serve proper justice. I don't want evil, sick, remorseless criminals roaming around, specially when there could be sickos anywhere cos they don't let parents have the right to know when a dangerous person is living near them. >(
I'm not sure I'd agree with bringing back public execution, but under the right set of circumstances and controls then the death penalty would not be unwelcome to me.
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And if we don't believe in God?
Being Wiccan, I believe in the Three-Fold Law. Whatever bad you do, expect it three times over. A murderer kills...by RIGHTS he deserves three times that pain, that end.
Believing in a God to deal out judgements is just a way to avoid it. Its a way to think, "Well, I don't want to make this decision, so we'll lock the murderer up for life, then God can deal with it."
Are you honestly saying Myra Hindley, or whatever her name was, didn't deserve death? Your saying the guy who killed Sally Anne should live the rest of his life?
Your saying if I killed someone know, you wouldn't mind me living? What if I killed your girlfriend, boyfriend, mother, father...son daughter? Thats ok is it? You wouldn't mind if I just got locked in a cell, being fed and watered?
No wonder people do murder, its not like its difficult anymore, you don't get much of a punishment.
I can GARUNTEE if the Death Penalty came back into force, it would half the murders.
So you agree with incorporating religious beliefes? While you may agree with the Three-fold law, I don't, and chances are the person on death row doesn't. That contradicts your line of "And if we don't believe in God?". Religious beliefes should be kept seperate from what is state murder. While believing in God to deal judgement should be left alone and not used, same applies for any religion.
The Death penalty would not half the murders, not all murderers are set on Death row. It was abolished for a reason.
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Basically; Why kill the killer, when you can begin to understand the underlying problem and prevent it properly.
Because you really think that all criminals, regardless of the crime they've committed, can be'cured' so that they'll never reoffend?
Sorry but that is completely wrong. Certain types of criminal NEVER feel remorse, look at the lads who killed James Bulger in 1993. No remorse there, they simply don't care. They are my age, and one has just had a baby with a girl who has no idea who he is. You think he deserves that? I hope he now understands how much suffering he caused to James' family. They have to live out the rest of their lives without the most precious thing they ever had. I don't think I could live like that without my kids.
Fair enough, if a criminal truly repents then fine. They can do their time, and when they are released they will suufer with the guilt of what they did.
Anyway the point I'm trying to make is what is the point in keeping someone alive in our jails, leeching taxpayers money to buy them PS2s and all the little luxuries that criminals get. If someone is never going to feel any type of remorse, then what is the point of keeping them alive? They will eventually get released due to the fact that this country cannot serve proper justice. I don't want evil, sick, remorseless criminals roaming around, specially when there could be sickos anywhere cos they don't let parents have the right to know when a dangerous person is living near them. >(
I'm not sure I'd agree with bringing back public execution, but under the right set of circumstances and controls then the death penalty would not be unwelcome to me.
In some cases, yes, they can be "cured" and not reoffend, for example Tookie williams.
What defines wrong? Certain types of criminals may never feel remorse, yet many may do and will feel remorse, weither its 2 or 20 years down the line. Capital punishment doesn't just deal with murderers. In other countries people are tortured and slaughtered for their Political beliefes and opposition, religious beliefes or just because they where in the wrong place at the wrong time. State murder is murder, is murder, is murder.
How much of taxpayers money goes into each cellmate? Not a lot. Yet people are contempt to let politicians decorate their offices with gold-lined wallpaper (payed for by the public), have a monarch that sits on £10 million+ a year because shes "privilaged" and waste millions on trivial matters? And then they complain about people "leeching" in jail. I've heard it all now.
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I think it says alot about human nature when people want someone to die for them to feel safe. No response to any particular comment or person, it just occured to me.
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Because you, and anyone else who doesn't agree with the Death Penalty, are too humane. Chris, I thought you hated humanity, yet you want a killer to survive?
Ahh well, I just hope someone brings the Death Penalty back. I don't want to raise children in a world where killers can be freed.
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And so where would euthanasia come into all of this? It involves ending someone's life, which in some eyes could be viewed as murder.
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Because you, and anyone else who doesn't agree with the Death Penalty, are too humane. Chris, I thought you hated humanity, yet you want a killer to survive?
Humane - Kind-hearted and merciful. Most of humanity is nothing like this and so therefore Humane and Inhumane should switch meanings. I don't hate humanity, just the majority who are generally quite bitchy to each other. I hate murderers, I hate rapists, I hate criminals in general, but I don't want to see them dead. Actually no, I'm not sure if hate is the right word. I pity them more than anything else. People don't just become criminals, society creates them. Rather than just hand out punishments we should be tackling the inequalities in society, tackling the social injustice.
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Because you, and anyone else who doesn't agree with the Death Penalty, are too humane. Chris, I thought you hated humanity, yet you want a killer to survive?
Ahh well, I just hope someone brings the Death Penalty back. I don't want to raise children in a world where killers can be freed.
Aye, cuz being humane is suddenly a bad thing.
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Well, yeah, to me it is. Being 'humane' to a pathetic parasite is unbelievable to me.
I read in the paper today, about that guy who ran a farmer over in his OWN land rover...he got 15 years. 15 Years. He's a drug addict too. In 15 years, I'll have maybe a 5/10 year old child...I don't want him or her out in the world when he's freed.
And we're not talking about Euthanasia Gollum, there's another topic for that. But yes, I agree if someone wants to die, they have a right to die. I mean people who actually deserve to be listened too.
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BEWARE: This post contains senstive material, people with weak constitutions or painful experience with rape and murder, do not read on
Haha, criminals are hardly "fed and watered like plants" in her majesty's prisons. With so many human rights legislations, they have the right to sue (sp) the minute they're out for any maltreatment they get in there. They're hardly locked away and fed gruel! They're allowed to socialise, see their families, watch the football on the telly, AND if they can confess and seem guilty and sorry enough they're put on probation, even released. Aye legally they've recieved their life sentence, but only served a small part of it because they're sorry. Awww. They've taken someone's life, and because they can suddenly feel sorry, or in many cases plead insanity, they're let free? I don't think Jamie Bulger's killers should EVER have seen the green grass again.
Then, on the other side of the lawn... I agree that we don't have the power to condemn someone to death, even if they themselves have done the same to someone else.
Not too long ago, I lost an old friend. I didn't know her too well when she died, but she was my best friend when I was 11. Even though I hadn't seen her for 6 or 7 years, the blow was enourmous. She was raped, and the pain she suffered emotionally drove her to suicide. I would quite happily wish death upon the man who would take something like that from this poor girl. She was such a sweetheart, always with a cheeky grin.
I can completely see why Angelus sees reason to bring back the public executions. In his opinion, which I agree with, to a point: Watching someone die painfully for what they've done would probably be a very good motivation not to do something like that yourself. However, the idea of going to see a public execution seems to me sick and sadistic.
Then there's also the mental health issue. Many people who commit murder and rape are not of sound mind. There was an incident local to me where a severed head was found on a swing by a man walking his dog. The following police investigation found the rest of the body scattered in bushes, and led back to the murderer's house. The policemen who searched the house, big burly men, were coming out covered in blood and vomiting on the lawn, the contents of the house were so horrific. There was an arm in the oven that had been roasted with rosemary, and a body hung, drawn and quartered in the hallway. They traced the man, found that he'd left the UK for New York, where they found him eating a sandwich on a bench outside the police station. The man was found to be, as the officer that informed me of the story said "crazy as a fish". This man had committed seriously horrific crimes, but was entirely unaware of what he had done. Does he deserve death? Does he deserve to be locked up, but still allowed potentially harmful contact with the outside world and other inmates? I think he was sent to a high security prison with a luxurious lifestyle for the mentally infirm.
I don't really have a set opinion for or against the death penalty, but I don't think it should be dealt out hastily.
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i read in the news yeaterday about a couple who maliciously abused and raped a baby of only a few months old. now there going to jail for life which really means about 7 on good behaviour and because they will be so hated by society the goverment will use our taxes to set them up abroad in the sun. how is that fair??? they should be sentenced to death or at least be forced to live with the other in mates in prison that would teach them a few things.
take the james bulger killers at the ages of 11 they murdered a toddler in cold blood and now theyve been released and living in some hot country having the high life because they demonstrated 'regret' for there actions. if the capitol punishment was re introduced i for one would be more than happy to support it. as long as already stated it been completely proven there guilty.
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I read about those two rapists today who did that to a baby...how more low can anyone get? A baby for pete's sake?
If ANYONE tells me they don't deserve death, then your scum yourself, I'm sorry.
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Yeah I've heard what they did to that baby and that is seriously screwed up. Life should mean life, as I have stated before.
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I read about those two rapists today who did that to a baby...how more low can anyone get? A baby for pete's sake?
If ANYONE tells me they don't deserve death, then your scum yourself, I'm sorry.
Aye, so I'm scum then. The left wing scum.
Even if they did that, who says you have the right to take away a life in revenge. Murder is murder. Two wrongs will never make a right and the day capital punishment comes back (it won't, btw) I'm going down south.
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Haha, I have every right to condemn a man or woman to death if they took a life. They gave EVERY SINGLE ONE of their rights away as soon as they did their crime.
And yeah, if you don't think that disgusting man deserves death, there is something terribly wrong with you. Did you even read what he did? How can you say that b*stard has any rights?
A murderer has no rights. They give up their rights when they take an innocent life.
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So would you personally kill the culprits?
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Yeah, I would. In the most brutal way I could, ideally, but if I had to give the Lethal Injection or something, I would definately.
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You are wrong Icy, Murderers DO have rights under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Most brutal was possible? If you think that's justice than sorry but you're in no position to call people who are anti-death penalty scum. Jim is right the death penalty will never come back and it's a damn good thing. Instead of handing out punishements we should look at preventing the cause of crime rather than treating the effect. Killing someone makes no difference, they have already commited their crime and killing them just makes you as bad as them. America has the death penalty but look at their government, full of right wing christian fundementalist wackos who frankly make the Tories look like angels (I must admit I am generalising American politics here, I admit not all american politicians are like that, just far too many). You'd model our justice system on that? A country that thinks that using electricity to barbecue someone to death isn't a "Cruel and Unusual punishement". It seems to me that if the UK was run your way we'd have to suspend human rights (Something else American politicians don't mind doing if it gets results). If anyone tries to take my human rights away from me I think I'll also be inclined to go south.
Oh and by the way I'm sorry if I come across as a little anti-American. I have nothing against the American people just the majority of their politicians. Infact I have a dislike of almost all politicians, just the American ones in particular.
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Haha, I have every right to condemn a man or woman to death if they took a life. They gave EVERY SINGLE ONE of their rights away as soon as they did their crime.
And yeah, if you don't think that disgusting man deserves death, there is something terribly wrong with you. Did you even read what he did? How can you say that b*stard has any rights?
A murderer has no rights. They give up their rights when they take an innocent life.
Aye well according to the current Government they do have rights, regardless of your views. :angel:
Your saying they don't have the right to murder, but you have the right to murder them if they murder someone, so what stops me from having the right to murder you? You will be taking a life, I can take yours, and someone can take mine, etc.
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Well, I think it about time someone came in here and gave Icy some support. I totally agree with everything you say Icy.
It is wishy washy liberal types like you lot that have turned this county into the pitiful state it is in today.
A person who murders someone in cold blood or who takes an innocents life without any remorse should have no rights to anything. Oh yeah, lets bung em in an institution for a while... pay for all their meals and their bedding and their rooms and then... lets let em go and not only that, we will set them up for life!!!! WHERE is the justice in that eh? Are you seriously trying to suggest that it is appropriate for murderers to be treated like that? What about the victims? There's no second chances for them is there? What about their families and the devastating effect it has on them?
You know... it is almost as though a prospective murderer could weigh up the odds of the consequences for their actions before they do it. I mean, there you are in the world struggling to make ends meet, having to sell yourself into slavery for life just to get by... but hey hang on.... if you murder someone in cold blood... well you are looked after for 10 years of your life and.... hang on again.... if you a EVIL enough to upset enough people really really badly, then when you come out you get a WHOLE NEW LIFE where you are set up with a new identity and home and even given skills that you never had before!!!!!! >( >( Well I dont know how anyone can justify that.
Go on justify it. I really really want to hear your arguments for it. And before you start applying your arguments personally towards me.... dont bother. That is just a way to avoid the real issue which is the above.
Where is the deterrent? Where is the punishment? Where is the JUSTICE?
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Thank you B, I was beginning to think I was the only one who cared about this :D
Exactly. Where is the Justice these days? There isn't any.
I could happily go out and kill someone...anyone...a mother with a young baby...an old woman who had served in WW2...a man who was a Doctor and had saved millions of peoples lives...maybe even mine...
Your saying I have a RIGHT to live if I did that? It's sick...what right should I have? If I killed an innocent life, why should I have any rights?
And before ANYONE says I do, I mean real rights, not something written down on a piece of paper. What rights, as a human, do I have, regardless of laws and such?
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Piece of paper? Real rights are those written on a piece of paper, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is what gives us our rights. If you get rid of these pieces of paper what rights does anyone have? None is the answer. There is no such thing as a right without some sort of system of law. As far as I'm concerned if someone commits a murder and is remorseless they can stay in prison for life, I agree releasing people like you have mentioned is stupid, but killing them also solves nothing. Understanding why people commits crimes can help prevent them, but you can't learn anything from someone who is dead. Yes the criminal justice system isn't purpose, yes there is room for improvement but handing out death as a punishment isn't it. Who knows where that could lead? Maybe we should go back to a viking system of justice? If someone kills someone you care about you kill them, and then someone who cared about them kills you, and before you know it the population of england has slaughtered each other. Or maybe we should follow Draco's example and have death as a punishment for every crime? Life imprisonment for these sickos you've mentioned by all means, death, sorry but no. It doesn't solve a damn thing except make people feel safe knowing there aern't these people out there, but then life imprisonment achieves the same thing.
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Universal Declaration of Human Rights is what gives us our rights
Exactly, its a DECLARATION, not a treaty...plus, the UN are pushovers anyway...bosnia proved that.
I'd say the Amsterdam treaty would be more sufficient.
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Well, I think it about time someone came in here and gave Icy some support. I totally agree with everything you say Icy.
It is wishy washy liberal types like you lot that have turned this county into the pitiful state it is in today.
A person who murders someone in cold blood or who takes an innocents life without any remorse should have no rights to anything. Oh yeah, lets bung em in an institution for a while... pay for all their meals and their bedding and their rooms and then... lets let em go and not only that, we will set them up for life!!!! WHERE is the justice in that eh? Are you seriously trying to suggest that it is appropriate for murderers to be treated like that? What about the victims? There's no second chances for them is there? What about their families and the devastating effect it has on them?
You know... it is almost as though a prospective murderer could weigh up the odds of the consequences for their actions before they do it. I mean, there you are in the world struggling to make ends meet, having to sell yourself into slavery for life just to get by... but hey hang on.... if you murder someone in cold blood... well you are looked after for 10 years of your life and.... hang on again.... if you a EVIL enough to upset enough people really really badly, then when you come out you get a WHOLE NEW LIFE where you are set up with a new identity and home and even given skills that you never had before!!!!!! >( >( Well I dont know how anyone can justify that.
Go on justify it. I really really want to hear your arguments for it. And before you start applying your arguments personally towards me.... dont bother. That is just a way to avoid the real issue which is the above.
Where is the deterrent? Where is the punishment? Where is the JUSTICE?
Excuse me, I've done nothing to *your* country. My country has enough problems of it's own because of *your* country ::)
A person who murders someone in cold blood has no right to live but yet the judge or politician have the right to murder THAT person in cold blood? Oh, I see the logic now... ::)
If they're given new skills and a home when they come out, then maybe society should do that in the first place, eh?
Thank you B, I was beginning to think I was the only one who cared about this Grin
Exactly. Where is the Justice these days? There isn't any.
I could happily go out and kill someone...anyone...a mother with a young baby...an old woman who had served in WW2...a man who was a Doctor and had saved millions of peoples lives...maybe even mine...
Your saying I have a RIGHT to live if I did that? It's sick...what right should I have? If I killed an innocent life, why should I have any rights?
And before ANYONE says I do, I mean real rights, not something written down on a piece of paper. What rights, as a human, do I have, regardless of laws and such?
What is justice? Tell me that, because Britain certainly doesn't know about justice in the first place, regardless of Capital punishment.
By right of birth on this earth everyone has a right to life, regardless of what you do. There is no higher superiority here that can condemn you to death for killing someone else. American states still have Capital punishment; people still kill.
And even without the moral side of it, what happens when you get the wrong people? Is it just a tragety that innocent people where killed by the state? Then put the Judge to death too.
If there was still Capital punishment or Public executions the Birmingham 6 would have been dead. It was years before evidence was brought forward to their innocence.
If you want to talk about real rights, then think about the right of death and birth. The same arguement comes back by people pro Capital punishment - "But the victim has a right to life too", aye, well so do the thousands of people around the world that have been killed by your Government, where's the justice in that?
Your arguement has worked against you with your last sentence. As human beings, killers have rights to life regardless.
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Well, I think it about time someone came in here and gave Icy some support. I totally agree with everything you say Icy.
It is wishy washy liberal types like you lot that have turned this county into the pitiful state it is in today.
A person who murders someone in cold blood or who takes an innocents life without any remorse should have no rights to anything. Oh yeah, lets bung em in an institution for a while... pay for all their meals and their bedding and their rooms and then... lets let em go and not only that, we will set them up for life!!!! WHERE is the justice in that eh? Are you seriously trying to suggest that it is appropriate for murderers to be treated like that? What about the victims? There's no second chances for them is there? What about their families and the devastating effect it has on them?
You know... it is almost as though a prospective murderer could weigh up the odds of the consequences for their actions before they do it. I mean, there you are in the world struggling to make ends meet, having to sell yourself into slavery for life just to get by... but hey hang on.... if you murder someone in cold blood... well you are looked after for 10 years of your life and.... hang on again.... if you a EVIL enough to upset enough people really really badly, then when you come out you get a WHOLE NEW LIFE where you are set up with a new identity and home and even given skills that you never had before!!!!!! >( >( Well I dont know how anyone can justify that.
Go on justify it. I really really want to hear your arguments for it. And before you start applying your arguments personally towards me.... dont bother. That is just a way to avoid the real issue which is the above.
Where is the deterrent? Where is the punishment? Where is the JUSTICE?
Excuse me, I've done nothing to *your* country. My country has enough problems of it's own because of *your* country ::) :dry: Who said anything about *yours* or *my* country? Like I said, stop trying to divert the issue by changing the subject!
A person who murders someone in cold blood has no right to live but yet the judge or politician have the right to murder THAT person in cold blood? Oh, I see the logic now... ::) dry:That isnt murder though is it? And who cares about logic anyway. Why should I work my whole flippin life to fund these characters in jail eh? It makes me sick.
If they're given new skills and a home when they come out, then maybe society should do that in the first place, eh? And so say all of us! In fact, I reckon all people deserve a decent living and start in life. But hey, thats not the real world is it? But if I go and and murder an innocent in cold blood, THEN I can get the support I shouldve got in the first place. Like I said, it makes me sick!
As far as I'm concerned if someone commits a murder and is remorseless they can stay in prison for life, I agree releasing people like you have mentioned is stupid, but killing them also solves nothing.
I really have to disagree with you there. It solves EVERYTHING. It gets rid of them and society is a better place for it.
If someone kills someone you care about you kill them, and then someone who cared about them kills you, and before you know it the population of england has slaughtered each other. Well maybe something could be said for that. Allowing a family to take revenge for the wrongdoing sounds good to me!
Life imprisonment for these sickos you've mentioned by all means, death, sorry but no. It doesn't solve a damn thing except make people feel safe knowing there aern't these people out there, but then life imprisonment achieves the same thing. No it doesnt, they dont get kept in. If life meant life then fair enough but it doesnt does it? Since when has a life been 15 years eh? Oh yeah well maybe if some nutter comes along and snuffs you out at 15 years old it would be life. But 15 years does NOT constitute a lifetime does it? Furthermore it costs the taxpayers money to keep those b astards for all those year! GAH! >(
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these peas seem rounder than usual.
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If a life sentence was just that, a sentence for the remainder of the life of an individual that has committed an horrendous crime, I would be content to accept that as at least some form of justice, and as a means to prevent that individual re-entering society. As a life sentence does NOT mean life, I feel that in some cases the nature of the crime warrants the death penalty. In my West Midlands town there is a current outcry as the Home Office were intending to release a man back into this community, where, some years ago, he tortured and cut the throats of 3 toddlers under the age of 3 and impaled their bodies on the garden railings so that their parents would find them as they came home, which they did. Now you might say that no sane human being is capable of such an act and that as such the perpertrator was sick and therefore deserves help and the opportunity to be rehabilitated, but nevertheless I do not feel that it is right that someone capable of such barbarity should be photographed wandering around a shopping centre in Liverpool taking one of his many prearranged unsupervised days out prior to being released. The man showed no remorse at his trial, stating that it was all the fault of the two month old baby that he was looking after as it would not stop crying after he had hit it. He has showed no remorse during his relatively brief term of imprisonment, and certainly no understanding of the grief and pain he inflicted on the parents of those children. If he is this lacking in empathy for the victims of his crime, what is to prevent him reoffending? Certainly not a conscience.
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The statement I replied too sums up about your and my country. Try reading it. Infact here it is:
It is wishy washy liberal types like you lot that have turned this county into the pitiful state it is in today.
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I don't see me trying to divert the subject, I replied to it.
Yes, it is murder. Murder is murder is murder is murder. A life is lost through someone elses power, who can at any time stop it; murder. Weither its from a killer or a judge.
Why should you work your whole life to fund politicians putting gold-lined wallpaper that costs £1 million a sheet, for a monarch who sits on £10million a year or for the million other reasons? Answer please. I know I'd rather pay taxes to keep people from being killed for revenge, than let some bollock politician waste money.
It may make you sick but it's reality. People DON'T get the help they need, why is that? There are people commiting crimes just so they can go to jail and have a roof over their heads, it makes ME sick that they have to do that in this "fair and just society". flibbling farse.
You keep talking about tax payers money but your quite willing to allow what I stated a few lines up.
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Because this is NOT a discussion about the Royal Family, or Polititians, or anything. Its about the Death Penalty.
I cannot fathom out how you can think a murderer has any right. How can someone who takes a life be let to live? It makes me sick...it actually makes me sick to think of it.
Britain has no Justice. None whatsoever. I might as well go and kill the people I don't really like, because lets face it, I can get away with it easily! A few years in prison? Why not! Its free for me, they'll feed me, in a few years I'll probably be out anyway! Ohhh then I can kill again, wouldn't that be fun!
THATS the mind of a killer. They don't give a damn about Jail, otherwise they wouldn't kill, would they? Whereas if they knew the penalty was Death....everyone is afraid of Death...and even if they're not afraid, they don't exactly want to do it. Unless the killer has a screw loose, he'd or she'd think about it if they knew the Dealth Penalty was in use.
I suppose you think those baby rapists should get less than six years in jail? Thats all they got., you know. Six Years. And the mother of that child has to live with the torment and torture for life. She will live till her dying day, never forgetting that.
But who care's, right? They have RIGHTS.
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Just wondering, would you call people who have gone to war and fought for their country murderers?
After all, haven't they gone out there knowing that they are going to be killing someone, hence attacking someone with intent to kill. By your previous statements, that's enough to make them a murderer, and therefore have the death penalty.
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War isn't murder. A Soldier isn't a murderer if he kills the enemy. Its his job. Its for the greater good.
As in World War 2, the soldier's were protecting their country from terror. It's different.
I do not think anyone can compare a solider to a murderer. There is nothing in common.
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Apart from the fact that they both kill?
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Because this is NOT a discussion about the Royal Family, or Polititians, or anything. Its about the Death Penalty.
I cannot fathom out how you can think a murderer has any right. How can someone who takes a life be let to live? It makes me sick...it actually makes me sick to think of it.
Britain has no Justice. None whatsoever. I might as well go and kill the people I don't really like, because lets face it, I can get away with it easily! A few years in prison? Why not! Its free for me, they'll feed me, in a few years I'll probably be out anyway! Ohhh then I can kill again, wouldn't that be fun!
THATS the mind of a killer. They don't give a damn about Jail, otherwise they wouldn't kill, would they? Whereas if they knew the penalty was Death....everyone is afraid of Death...and even if they're not afraid, they don't exactly want to do it. Unless the killer has a screw loose, he'd or she'd think about it if they knew the Dealth Penalty was in use.
I suppose you think those baby rapists should get less than six years in jail? Thats all they got., you know. Six Years. And the mother of that child has to live with the torment and torture for life. She will live till her dying day, never forgetting that.
But who care's, right? They have RIGHTS.
My point still stands (and no one has yet to answer it). If the tax arguement comes into it, then I will bring politics, the royal family and other taxation wastes into it.
I can't fathom out how you can think a murderer has no right to life, and feel superior to someone because of their actions, yet are perfectly fine about putting that person to death.
If thats the mind of a killer, then love am sorry but you haven't got a clue. Some people are mentally away in the head, some people do it in self defence, some people do it for pleasure, some people are blamed for it wrongly.
Who's fault is it baby rapists got 6 years? Blame the judiciary.
War is murder. I'm going to say it again. Murder is murder, is murder, is murder, is murder. Whoever does it. What flibbling greater good is there in sending a few thousand soldiers into a foreign country that doesn't want you? It's called invasion. State murder and collaboration has been happening in Northern Ireland for the past 40 years, that's not a greater good.
World war 2 was for a greater good - the elites lust for more, on both sides. They're own greater good.
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I do not think anyone can compare a solider to a murderer. There is nothing in common
What about the 13 unarmed innocent civillians who were shot dead by the British Army in Ireland in 1972?
What about the My Lai massacre in Vietnam when WOMEN AND CHILDREN were lead into a ditch and riddled by American troops....there for the common good as Icy stated. (they lost that war, btw)
And on the point of My Lai....the commanding officer who overseen My Lai (who reportedly fired a few shots himself) served a minimum sentance, before being released....in a country which HAS the death penalty.
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In the back, mind you :-*
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Yes. The fellas who were shot in derry in 1972 were shot as they ran from the Parashute Regiment.
Throughout "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland, the regiment's battalions undertook many tours of duty. In 1972, while assisting the Royal Ulster Constabulary in preventing a civil rights march from taking place, they shot 13 men (7 teenagers) dead in Derry, an event which became known as Bloody Sunday. Despite claims by some paratroopers that they were fired upon, none were injured in the engagement, and no weapons were found.
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War is just murder on a massive scale.
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Exactly.
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So according to Icy and anyone else for capital punishment - These people should be put to death rather than spend the rest of their miserable lives in jail in fear of assassonation.
I think I prefere the last one.
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Do you have any idea how to debate? You don't talk about me, assuming my thoughts and opinions and having a nice little chat about me.
Firstly, with the baby-rapists. I KNOW its the judge who is to blame, but what I asked you is, do you think its right that this pig can get out in six years? You could have a Son or Daughter by then. But I'm sure you wouldn't mind him coming to get your children. But sadly, thats what will happen to someone if he gets out.
I understand people do murder, who have mental problems or in self defence. But this is about murder, not manslaughter. In self defence, its different. And NO, do not twist that around by saying 'but how can you prove its in self defence, blah blah frigging blah' Again, I mean PROVEN MURDER.
And people who murder with mental problems? I'm sorry, but if someone's mental problems stretch to that extreme, they should be put to death anyway.
And War.
Did I say anything about the Iraq invasion. I KNOW that was a frigging invasion, not a war, do not insult my intelligence. I have told people for months and months that isn't a war, its an invasion. I agree with you there.
The thing with soldiers is, its their job. Its their job to protect their country, or get rid of dangerous parties. They serve their country with their life, and to me, you cannot get a better person who would risk that for his or her people, and I applaud them for that.
A man who kills a child, a mother, a grandmother, a father...in cold blood. Thats the kind of person I mean. The kind who kills because of the sick pleasure they get from it, or the twisted thoughts they get from it.
Rotting in jail, sure, its fine, I agree its bad, its what they deserve. But why should I, my boyfriend, my family, my friend, who work hard all their life....pay for them to stay there?
I will agree that jail is the answer when they stop paying to keep the lowlifes in jail on taxpayers money. And don't go into a tirade about other tax scroungers such as the Royals. I hate the Royal Family, and would just agree with you anyway, as I would with the other things you mentioned, but this is a debate about Capital Punishment, so lets keep it that way.
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It may make you sick but it's reality. People DON'T get the help they need, why is that? There are people commiting crimes just so they can go to jail and have a roof over their heads, it makes ME sick that they have to do that in this "fair and just society". flibbling farse.
i didnt think debate was about petty theiving so homeless people can go to jail and have a roof over there heads i THOUGHT it was about killing dirty cold blooded no remorse murderers.
i agree with icy all the way if it was a member of your family that was killed and the killer showed no remorse , even glee at his deed and only stayed in prison for 10 years because of good behavior youd want to rip there head off.
but because your sitting on the fence watching it happen to someone else you feel all rightous in saying that no one deserves death even for murder. but if it were to happen to you the chances are you'd be agreeing with us.
but its ok you can be the people who appear to the world as merciful and just and just hope that one day you dont get put in the position where *god forbid im not wishing this on anyone* someone close to you gets killed and you have to see the murder in your local high street 10 years later as if nothings happened looking for there next victiem.
your right we do have such an excellent justice system!
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Do you have any idea how to debate? You don't talk about me, assuming my thoughts and opinions and having a nice little chat about me.
Firstly, with the baby-rapists. I KNOW its the judge who is to blame, but what I asked you is, do you think its right that this pig can get out in six years? You could have a Son or Daughter by then. But I'm sure you wouldn't mind him coming to get your children. But sadly, thats what will happen to someone if he gets out.
I understand people do murder, who have mental problems or in self defence. But this is about murder, not manslaughter. In self defence, its different. And NO, do not twist that around by saying 'but how can you prove its in self defence, blah blah frigging blah' Again, I mean PROVEN MURDER.
And people who murder with mental problems? I'm sorry, but if someone's mental problems stretch to that extreme, they should be put to death anyway.
And War.
Did I say anything about the Iraq invasion. I KNOW that was a frigging invasion, not a war, do not insult my intelligence. I have told people for months and months that isn't a war, its an invasion. I agree with you there.
The thing with soldiers is, its their job. Its their job to protect their country, or get rid of dangerous parties. They serve their country with their life, and to me, you cannot get a better person who would risk that for his or her people, and I applaud them for that.
A man who kills a child, a mother, a grandmother, a father...in cold blood. Thats the kind of person I mean. The kind who kills because of the sick pleasure they get from it, or the twisted thoughts they get from it.
Rotting in jail, sure, its fine, I agree its bad, its what they deserve. But why should I, my boyfriend, my family, my friend, who work hard all their life....pay for them to stay there?
I will agree that jail is the answer when they stop paying to keep the lowlifes in jail on taxpayers money. And don't go into a tirade about other tax scroungers such as the Royals. I hate the Royal Family, and would just agree with you anyway, as I would with the other things you mentioned, but this is a debate about Capital Punishment, so lets keep it that way.
It's obvious I know how to debate. I do and will talk about you and assume. It's been done about me in this topic too, dry your eyes.
Firstly no I don't think it's right he can get out in 6 years. 6 years isn't nearly long enough and I've said nothing about agreeing on how long a sentence should be. Judges are out of touch with reality to be honest. There are a lot of reforms that need to be introduced, 6 years isn't enough, 20-30+ is, death is not an answer, and it never will be an answer.
How can I turn around and complain about evidence? I'll mention them for the third time - The birmingham 6, who would be dead before any evidence was brought forward on their innocence. That's reality. They where considered proven murderers.
Mad and bad, the mad should be put to death ? Right, I just can't take you seriously anymore, honestly.
As for war, The iraqi invasion still has casualties, it's war. I still don't get how invading the middle east is protecting Britain. That's a farse, and you know it. I know fine rightly who you mean. Remember that soldiers also kill in cold blood. You've already said you would want people who get a sick pleasure (i.e mad) should die, yet who are you to condemn anyone to death?
And yet again you bring taxation into it after complaining. And yet again you can't answer me. Your willing to let politicians, monarchy and other privilaged people spend your money foolishly but you aren't to let someone who commited a crime and may be sorry for it and want to help others (i.e tookie williams, who is now dead), live a terrible life in a cell, a life that isn't worthy of the word life. And not just you, Britain in general are willing to do this, where is the logic in that?
Lets see. Let a man live in jail, or let Tony blair decorate his best mates office with gold lined wallpaper. Hard choice, isn't it? ::)
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It may make you sick but it's reality. People DON'T get the help they need, why is that? There are people commiting crimes just so they can go to jail and have a roof over their heads, it makes ME sick that they have to do that in this "fair and just society". flibbling farse.
i didnt think debate was about petty theiving so homeless people can go to jail and have a roof over there heads i THOUGHT it was about killing dirty cold blooded no remorse murderers.
i agree with icy all the way if it was a member of your family that was killed and the killer showed no remorse , even glee at his deed and only stayed in prison for 10 years because of good behavior youd want to rip there head off.
but because your sitting on the fence watching it happen to someone else you feel all rightous in saying that no one deserves death even for murder. but if it were to happen to you the chances are you'd be agreeing with us.
but its ok you can be the people who appear to the world as merciful and just and just hope that one day you dont get put in the position where *god forbid im not wishing this on anyone* someone close to you gets killed and you have to see the murder in your local high street 10 years later as if nothings happened looking for there next victiem.
your right we do have such an excellent justice system!
Okay then what defines a cold blooded murderer? How do we know they have no remorse when most killers do in the end show remorse. It may take years, it may take minutes after the incident.
If it was a member ofmy family that was killed, I wouldn't put that person under death since I'm superior to no one, and no one is superior to me, morally. Putting it simply, a member of my family (albeit not diect relation, still family) was killed by the Shankill butchers, I'm sure you've heard about them.
I don't appear to be merciful, everyone has a hint of spite and revenge in them, its human nature as far as I'm concerned, but I won't have a murderer killed to so I can have 5 minutes of revenge. It solves nothing and never will sovle anything.
People here have been murdered by the state (Police and British soldiers), paramilitaries(IRA, INLA, UVF, UDA), and general killers, I do have that extra edge on judging capital punishment because murder was an every day thing here for years, up untill 5-10 years ago.
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Firstly, double posting. Do it again and I'll report you.
Secondly, did I say I was willing to pay tax for the Royal's, etc? Why do you keep putting words into my mouth? The topic is the Dealth Pentalty, and I'll discuss the Death Penalty. I already said, if their was a topic on Tax, then I'd dicuss it all, but I won't, because its not part of the topic.
Your the one I can't take seriously anymore. I'm not being funny here, but if someone has such a mental problem that they kill, thats no quality of life. But thats another story, part of euthanasia even.
And back to Soldiers.
As for war, The iraqi invasion still has casualties, it's war. I still don't get how invading the middle east is protecting Britain.
Again, assuming and putting words right into my mouth. I said nothing about Iraq. I actually agreed with you, but there you go again.
Granted, some soldier's do kill in cold blood, which I think yes, is a crime that, in an ideal world, proven, worth the Death Penalty.
But the majority of Soldier's do their job right, they protect their country. They have more bravery than almost everyone else, except perhaps Policemen and Ambulance men and Fire Fighters.
You try running a country without an Army. Only one country I know of has no army, and thats Costa Rica. But we live in Britain. We need soldiers. We have enemies all around the world, so we need protection.
You know full well what kind of people I mean when I say I want the Death Penalty.
I just hope you don't have children and loose one to a killer. When a person looses a child, then you know real pain...and you know real desire for revenge.
And as Leafi said about people going into jail on purpose. I know someone, well my mum does, who goes to jail after stealing, because he's safer and happier there! Its a sad, sad place we live in when people WANT to go to jail.
Some deterrant that is. No wonder people kill...why not, nothing happens to you.
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Why does this debate keep being hijacked by those who feel that they are on some kind of crusade? We are not discussing Northern Ireland, but the argument for and against the death penalty in specific types of murders. What makes you so especially qualified to judge, Jim/Phil or whoever you are? You grew up in Northern Ireland? Well bully for you. People the whole world over have grown up with violence as an integral part of their lives (including my family - my grandfather was blown up by an IRA bomb) but that does not give us the right or the inclination to posture as the oppressed and downtrodden. This is a question of the rights of victims of barbarous crime to demand justice for their loss, and an end to their pain. If delivering the death penalty to the monster who impaled three babies on garden railings after torturing them eases that pain for their parents, then I'm all for it. If executing a terrorist who places a nail bomb in a crowded restaurant full of innocent families relieves the world of one more murdering b**tard who rates his own radical beliefs above the rights of other human beings to live, then I'm all for it.
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Firstly, double posting. Do it again and I'll report you.
Secondly, did I say I was willing to pay tax for the Royal's, etc? Why do you keep putting words into my mouth? The topic is the Dealth Pentalty, and I'll discuss the Death Penalty. I already said, if their was a topic on Tax, then I'd dicuss it all, but I won't, because its not part of the topic.
Your the one I can't take seriously anymore. I'm not being funny here, but if someone has such a mental problem that they kill, thats no quality of life. But thats another story, part of euthanasia even.
And back to Soldiers.
As for war, The iraqi invasion still has casualties, it's war. I still don't get how invading the middle east is protecting Britain.
Again, assuming and putting words right into my mouth. I said nothing about Iraq. I actually agreed with you, but there you go again.
Granted, some soldier's do kill in cold blood, which I think yes, is a crime that, in an ideal world, proven, worth the Death Penalty.
But the majority of Soldier's do their job right, they protect their country. They have more bravery than almost everyone else, except perhaps Policemen and Ambulance men and Fire Fighters.
You try running a country without an Army. Only one country I know of has no army, and thats Costa Rica. But we live in Britain. We need soldiers. We have enemies all around the world, so we need protection.
You know full well what kind of people I mean when I say I want the Death Penalty.
I just hope you don't have children and loose one to a killer. When a person looses a child, then you know real pain...and you know real desire for revenge.
And as Leafi said about people going into jail on purpose. I know someone, well my mum does, who goes to jail after stealing, because he's safer and happier there! Its a sad, sad place we live in when people WANT to go to jail.
Some deterrant that is. No wonder people kill...why not, nothing happens to you.
You'll report me? Golly gosh.
I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm assuming, and so far I'm not doing a half bad job of it either. Again, all my points still stand. Your running from my questions again. Tax was brought into this, I'm going to discuss it. Even you brought it into your arguements. But apparently you can't take me seriously, well it won't be me killing handicaps ;)
So you've just said that even soldiers should get the death penalty for killing in cold blood; yet what defines killing in cold blood and killing in the name of "justice and peace". Thousands have been killed by the British army over the years in many countries, weither or not it's considered in cold blood is usually irrelevant because nothing will happen anyway. They're protecting nothing. Without armies there would be no wars, remember ;)
Your going on about nothing happening to you if you kill, yet I don't find sitting in a small room for 10-20 years very fun. Again, I'm anti-death pentalty, but I'm pro-reforms on doing something more about people getting less time than they should. :police:
I was going to make a second post to keep it clearer (and easier for me to read over) for the next reply, but I'll get reported :'(
Why does this debate keep being hijacked by those who feel that they are on some kind of crusade? We are not discussing Northern Ireland, but the argument for and against the death penalty in specific types of murders. What makes you so especially qualified to judge, Jim/Phil or whoever you are? You grew up in Northern Ireland? Well bully for you. People the whole world over have grown up with violence as an integral part of their lives (including my family - my grandfather was blown up by an IRA bomb) but that does not give us the right or the inclination to posture as the oppressed and downtrodden. This is a question of the rights of victims of barbarous crime to demand justice for their loss, and an end to their pain. If delivering the death penalty to the monster who impaled three babies on garden railings after torturing them eases that pain for their parents, then I'm all for it. If executing a terrorist who places a nail bomb in a crowded restaurant full of innocent families relieves the world of one more murdering b**tard who rates his own radical beliefs above the rights of other human beings to live, then I'm all for it.
What in the of jesus are you talking about ? Crusade? Aye.
We are discussing capital punishment, and murder by the state; Northern Ireland has seen enough state murders over the past 40 years, it's part of the topic. I'm Jim by the way, Phil is a different person.
What makes me qualified to judge? I'm not judging people in the first place or wanting them to die.
Don't get sarky, I know fine rightly people the world over have grown up with violence, but did you have another countries soldiers walking on your streets? Probably not.
Right, this is what I can't understand with your post - If someone is killed, right, and you get the killer, right, how the flibble does it end the victims suffering if the killer is dead? It ends poo poo all, it just makes another families life just as hell. This is a question on the rights of victims of barbarous crimes, so deliverying the death pentalty to the monsters who collaborated with loyalist death squads and shot families in their bed answers things, according to you, also, I hope.
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As I said, this is not just about Northern Ireland. I find your assumptions about others patronising in the extreme - my family did come from a country in which occupying forces patrolled the streets, so don't assume that you are the only victim of war/unrest/oppression. I repeat, my grandfather was killed by an IRA bomb, not by state murder or soldiers, but by someone who arbitrarily decided his life was worth nothing. And you're wrong. Knowing those sh*ts were dead would ease the pain immensely. Knowing that some of them have been 'rehabilitated', freed from jail, and are now posing as victims themselves only makes me wish I could take matters into my own hands instead.
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I fail to see how being a "good debater" as you two (Jim and Phil) is enough basis to allow you to stay in this place (yes allowed by the admins).
It's very easy to be pedantic when discussing or putting your points across in an arrogant and despicable mannerm, and I certainly didn't know that coming from Northern Ireland entitled anyone to do so, it certainly isn't the only place where you can come across the crude realities of life and perhaps get to an understanding of why an eye for an eye doesn't make things better.
I could debate every point that has been put across but at the end of the day it's down to the policy makers in every country to decide what is more convenient for their systems, that doesn't imply people in these countries stand for policies which can be fundamentally wrong or badly implemented, least of all it makes these policies better than any others.
In the view of that issue can you bring back this British student killed in Thailand by sentencing to death these two Thai Fishermen? no most certainly not. Can you avoid them repeating the same deed on someone else? yes, you most definately can but it requires a responsible individual approach within society to acknowledge that sometimes death penalty is right and that sometimes it is not.
I certainly can see the argument put forth by these judges, these two individuals knew the laws in Thailand punish these crimes heavily, and we all know that if they had money and influence they would bail their way out but we are not going to discuss the human factor which makes a system fail, simply if you know there are rules, even if you don't like them once you break them you are liable to have forfeited your right to anything.
This is why in days gone by people overrode the system and lynched (something still practiced where I come from).
Let's not forget that giving a cannibal forks doesn't make them more civilized and certainly pretending that some people understand the basics of human integrity and dignity and respect for others is far fetched, we are not all equals, some people are more basic or more complex and some have a high regard for life and some simply don't, so a single rule for all is flawed. Who is to judge who has rights or who doesn't is not up to me or a single person but the collective can certainly see when something stinks in Denmark and when it doesn't, that is why lynching still exists.
You can come back and put on your show folks I just had to say it since I find it ludicrous that some people here can be kept around on the basis of 'good arguments'.
This is me out.
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I haven't given my opinion on the death penalty.
I also don't recall mentioning the IRA myself....I merely mentioned an atrocity carried out by the British Army in Norhern Ireland, because Icy made several comments about the British Army.
I dont speak on behalf of Jim, and I'm not prepared to scroll through his posts to see where he has mentioned the IRA.
So, if you're saying I should be banned because my opinion (which hasnt been overtly given once in this topic) apparently conflicts with yours...can I ask why?
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I only reffered to the British Army because I have no education in the IRA or any of Ireland's history, or present, at all. I am half Irish but hey, I'm Welsh first :P If I did know anything about Ireland then perhaps I would have included them.
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flibble it, cant be bothered anymore.
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I fail to see how being a "good debater" as you two (Jim and Phil) is enough basis to allow you to stay in this place (yes allowed by the admins).
You can come back and put on your show folks I just had to say it since I find it ludicrous that some people here can be kept around on the basis of 'good arguments'. This is me out.
there are many here that argue!
Ppl will be banned for being abusive, offensive, for bulling etc. but they wont be banned for arguing :( good or not (you misquote or misunderstand )... otherwise we;d be banning everyone who posts on this board!!!
that said, this topic needs some timeout...
:X: