The Age of the Ring (Lord of the Rings) Forum
Tolkien only Section => Tolkien => How Tolkien created Middle-Earth => Topic started by: EG on October 01, 2005, 12:33:51 AM
-
to discuss the articles and writings on Elves.
-
So do you beleive in their original existence, and continued one ?
-
In the real world? :e:
I have to say that I'm inclined to say that I don't believe in them.
I mean, I'm a science-girl, and what i can't see I can't believe in.
I don't know whether that's a good perspective to have though....certainly not very imaginative.
-
I tend to think it's definitely possible that they did exist at some point in earth's history but as to whether they continue to exist that I'm not so sure about.
Lessa
-
Well I definately think they existed in the past. As for now, well yes I think they still exist amongst us. As a true scientist I have the evidence before my eyes.
You know, it is still easy to spot the Elves, the Orcs, the Hobbits and the Dwarves who still walk this earth. Take a look around you, open your eyes. You will see what I mean. ;)
-
You know, it is still easy to spot the Elves, the Orcs, the Hobbits and the Dwarves who still walk this earth. Take a look around you, open your eyes. You will see what I mean. ;)
::) ??? :-\ :wacko:
So these elves that you believe existed/exist now - do you believe that they were able to perform magic?
-
Not specifically. I believe they were very close to nature and were therefore able to manipulate nature to some extent though.
-
That description brings druids to my mind, rather than elves.
I think i find druids more believable than elves....i'm not quite sure why. Maybe it's the element of nature.
-
elves and nature/druids/other nature beings are very closely linked tho
Each has its own nature power. Not magic as such, but a power... that power tho, is pure magic :)
-
That description brings druids to my mind, rather than elves.
I think i find druids more believable than elves....i'm not quite sure why. Maybe it's the element of nature.
And why give Druids more credibility?
Has it not occured to you where they might have got some of their ideas from?
*shrug* I dont think they deserve any more credibility than the elves do.
If anything, their ideas owe quite a lot to the elves imo.
-
Perhaps its because there are practicing Druids ? or their association with tree spirits ...
Yes I too beleive that the elves are the ones who bring the nature spirits together. They are here, for those who wish to see them :)
I think that without a doubt they existed in the past. There is just far too much information out there for them not to exist
I think what saddens me the most about the denial of the existence of beings such as elves, trolls etc is the way the world has developed. Become very materialistic, and so modern and concrete, that unless things are in front of peoples faces they refuse to acknowledge the existence of other beings. This refusual now has developed again in that, people now cannot see anything else. Its become a modern day belief :(
-
Perhaps its because there are practicing Druids ? or their association with tree spirits ...
Yes I too beleive that the elves are the ones who bring the nature spirits together. They are here, for those who wish to see them :)
I think that without a doubt they existed in the past. There is just far too much information out there for them not to exist
You see, that's one of the things that makes me doubt the existance of elves....the information we have abuot them. According to some stories, they are tall erethral beings, according to others, they are small mischevious sprites.
I can quite imagine how such wild variations could form from one original story, which was simply about elves. Then, as the story was told around firesides etc., with each retelling different details were added to the story. So in one part of the country, the elves became tall, noble beings. Whereas in others they were described as mischief-makers. (not sure if any of that made sense....it did in my mind)
I think what saddens me the most about the denial of the existence of beings such as elves, trolls etc is the way the world has developed. Become very materialistic, and so modern and concrete, that unless things are in front of peoples faces they refuse to acknowledge the existence of other beings. This refusual now has developed again in that, people now cannot see anything else. Its become a modern day belief :(
::) I know it's not an admirable view-point. I'd love to be all romantic and believe in elves and trolls and ents and orcs and wizards. But....you are what you are.
-
Having read so much recently.. I might be able to help you on the height thing at least.
The original elves were tall etheral beings, well the light ones were.. the dark elves were simliar and took to living underground, it seems they got a little confused with dwarves.
Throughout history, since the elves hid their lands from men, the stories ahve become wilder, and many say the elves were thieves... (tho actually what they did is took things, but left a payment) ... from that the mischieviousness has come, and through time they have become regarded as impish.. and I guess as a result diminuitive in height. Who#'s to say they arent a evolution of the original elf... but somehow, i think man's regard of elves is more altered than the elves themselves :-\
(and yes, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs :D)
-
When Richard or Maeve Leakey find the skull of an elf or dwarf and present it to the scientific community, that's when I'll believe in them.
Do you believe in dragons? Griffons? Centaurs? Unicorns? Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out!
-
strong words Athelas!
-
You are doing a fine job E.G!
Conducting it almost as an University Research :) or pretty much there :D
-
:pk: :P :D (and a little "inside" knowledge ;))
-
I belive in the elves and all other creatures....Errrr,I am something like a druid....Somethings from the past are still here,but more of them forgoten.... ::)
-
My background is scientific; I make no excuses. I do believe in God, which admittedly is ultimately a matter of Faith, not Knowledge, but that's where believing in the unprovable ends.
At least, show me some evidence in a thing before expecting me to believe. Nobody was around for the Big Bang, but red shifts from distant galaxies and cosmic microwaves provide supportive evidence.
Folk tales are not science!
-
Im not trying to prove or disprove
For me this is more a discussion in whether you think that there is a possibility of their existence, or you have a belief in that.
This discussion could denegrate into the beleif in the spirit world, and for you to believe in God, means you have some measure of that belief.
But yeah, really Im trying to accumulate the evidence surrounding the "creation " of the whole idea of Elves and other beings on Earth. After all, someone created them, if they didnt orginally exist... and all the topics Ive started here, surround the fable and legend of their original existence, or not.
-
Do you think it's possible that dragons once existed (and I don't mean the monitor lizards from the Komodo Islands)?
I put elves, dwarves, and other fairy-types in the same category.
-
i dont know. I havent read anything yet about them.... perhaps. I guess the image of them came from somewhere....
Interesting you say fairy-types. Do you imagine the elves to be little people ???
-
i dont know. I havent read anything yet about them.... perhaps. I guess the image of them came from somewhere....
Interesting you say fairy-types. Do you imagine the elves to be little people ???
I belive in thise creatures as well...But its me and I don't want to make the other people to be like me or to belive in the same things like me :)
I can't imagine the elves like a little people at all :wacko:
-
Do you think it's possible that dragons once existed (and I don't mean the monitor lizards from the Komodo Islands)?
I put elves, dwarves, and other fairy-types in the same category.
If you start studying new essays and research on a particular subject of physics related to multi quadrant systems you can apply it to our complex and then realise the idea of an universe can be a bit dated and replaced with a less known multiversal theory.
The problem with this is that a lot of people start abusing (not even using) the term quantum for anything (including quantum bollockery) however in a serious way existance of this multi-quadrantic complexes do exist (see fractal theories).
Multi-quadrantic complexes including our multiverse have a major problem tho, when experimenting with it scientists have found that unlike other subjects the samples behave quite differently to what they would otherwise, and when you draw a conclusion they seem to behave differently the next time, unlike say guinea pigs :)
What am I getting at?
The scientific community then started to toy about with multiple variables based on multiversal theory, and albeit not widely spread it's somewhat known to some the subjects of hybridization and other related subjects.
Do these species belong here as hybrids? (not talking of little green men here) hmmm Is the reason why most mythological beings (with some exceptions) don't exist in our multiversal complex due to biological reasons? or is it that they could belong to a different quadrant where different dimensional laws apply? say what if all these quadrants were rotating on the same axis? but only touched themselves or interlocked themselves at certain times? Certainly if such a time frame existed we wouldn't be able to know if at later stage all sorts of being could have existed or could exist.
In evolutionary theories I think the model is defined by a spiral, say if you lay it horizontally then its motion ressemble a pendulum with its high points and low points. Now let's imagine we are going to transit that evolutionary road so what kind of vehicle do we use to transit it? let's think of it in DNA terms so throw in there a vehicle, say a tricycle, a tricycle as you know is far more stable than a bicycle before it reaches a more balancing speed (which is once you start going down), but what happens when you start to go up again? the other wheel is needed so you form a tricycle again.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the only creatures with such a configuration of 3 strands are bacteria with their 3 Strands of RNA. But I wonder what it would be like to have individuals with that extra strand? hmm one can only wonder, and what if they had already existed but instead of having RNA they had have DNA!?
To avoid waffling further what I mean is, that there is far more out there than is available to the public through an easy read or a guide to how to understand evolutionary dynamics and multiversal complexes in 3 easy chapters. However I hope this intervention tickles some brains. ;)
-
certainly tickles mine! and makes total sense! (wierdly enough ;) LOL!)
-
Good! if it tickles one braing at least I'm happy :D
Don't you love this smilie? :fr: I feel like using it all the time lol (ok random) :P
-
well quantum physics is such a science that can be neither proved or disproved. But by calling it physics, it seems more acceptable! I see no reason why there are not many time dimensions, and therefore other world dimensions. Even perhaps, ourselves in another time as we are now. (very Red Dwarf style!)
It makes so much more sense of the "unexplained" and of even the "UFO and ET" phenomena
-
I'm not sure about whether to believe in the whole 11-dimensions, parallel universes etc. I suppose that it all just seems too abstract for my mind to deal with.
But I don't know, if there were parallel universes, I wouldn't imagine there to be little green men (elves, trolls, dragons, fairies etc) walking around). I'm not sure why, but I would imagine there to be something more normal and human around.
God my mind's confused. I wouldn't say that there definately aren't elves walking around in some kind of other universe. I would just say that, to my mind, it's highly unlikely. But maybe more likely than there being elves wandering around on this earth. :-\
(if anyone can make sense of that post they're doing better than me)
-
That's a very honest statement.
Trying to understand something too abstract without natural ability to do so always leads to a lot of confusion. But certainly a statement of that sort renders it more an opinion than doing what some people try and 'defend some ultimate truth or the other'.
About dimensional complexes tho. I'm referring mostly to fractal based complexes. I will look for some information I have collected on the dimensional issues and post them here when I find them :)
Certainly the parallel universes phrase is badly formulated. It's like saying there aren't parallel galaxies when you take in consideration that Universe refers to our galaxy alone and not the unexplored, so really it's more like Coexisting complexes (read well, didn't say Coinhabiting which would refer to the whole parallel dimensions issue).
-
Gee, I guess I lack that "natural ability". I'm certainly ignorant of cosmology and fractals, but what I think you're proposing, Hyllyn, is that multiple, parallel universes coexist, that one of them is inhabited by elves, dwarves, and what I consider mythological beasts, and at one time in the past, somehow, there was some kind of crossover between the two universes, allowing the inhabitants of one to enter the other. Is that it in simplistic terms for this simplistic brain?
Along the same lines, the elves and dwarves inhabiting the parallel universe now have folk tales about humans, lions, trout and mosquitos, and some skeptic over there is currently arguing that those creatures never existed.
I think it's more likely that good human storytellers from that past invented these beings, and the stories were preserved and expanded as time went on. Do you think that Greek mythology was a result of parallel universes or the product of active imaginations over the years?
-
Athelas.
You are a medic, am I right? or a doctor should that be the case.
Apply some anatomy knowledge there and then try to reason how a being like a Centaur could exist? Can you imagine the sempiternal back aches? or how the heart would have coped with pumping blood through two bodies? I don't know much about siamese mutations not as much as I would like at least, but I think that when sharing a single vital organ it makes it incredibly difficult to perform things a Centaur could have done. Cyclops? yeah, definately I have seen modern day evidence of the mutation which causes the phenomena. However there are things which are definately old wives tales, by all means I believe that, however ruling out that all of what nowadays is confined to 'imagination' does not exist because a few mythological beings have no possible anatomical right to exist is going a bit too far. Otherwise we would have to rule out all the mythological creatures that are mentioned in the Bible too and Dinosaurs a while ago as well.
I have a great interest in hybridization and mutations, not the kind where little green men chop bits from you and put different ones, but our own and those existing in the animal kingdom based on that is why I feel there's a good possibility that things that don't exist anymore are in one way or another hybridized or mutated.
Take Dinosaurs and their evolution into birds for example.
Or another one which is one of my favourites.
I drew this theory pairing several disciplines to explain myself how metals described in books (fantasy usually) could have existed.
If we throw a line back to our primeval times of geological evolution we will find that most elements that are now separate into the many we know nowdays could have been part of one alone. Through the sieving and metamorfic function of geological dynamics we have got to the stage where these elements are in separate form or what we nowadays call 'pure elements'. But what if like nowadays stones like Ametrine (which have half the looks of a Citrine and half the looks of an Amethist), we have had a metal like which looked like silver but had high fusion point and ferrous capabilities like that of the steel? it would mean you could have hardened the stuff and still would have looked like a noble metal, if you wish you can draw the conclusion you wish on the metal I'm referring to.
I use that same one when trying to explain to myself the nature of the one ring rather than stick to Tolkien's argument of the 'evil nature of gold' kind of crap. And then I think, what if it had been gold in colour but with such a high fusion point due to other traces or elements that only working it somewhere where you can achieve extreme temperatures (e.g A Volcano) would have made it possible? You have such elements in this day and age which can only be worked (not smelted) on extremely hot blast furnances (way hotter than your usual home made kiln).
I could carry on, but I think this conveys what I wanted to say.
I'm loving this topic and certainly look forward to its development :)
-
the only trouble, with people being able to beleive more in dinosaurs, is again physical evidence, i.e their bones.
However,, Im also mindful of the fact that a species, similar to that of the Hobbit has only just been discovered.... and yeah I agree Nil... just because we havent discoverd physical evidence, doesnt mean it didnt exist.... who knows what we might discover in the future :-\ ;)
-
Well take for example, the fact that so little viking remains are found, but only their burials. What does that tell us? Well they used to cremate themselves, so are we going to find any bones? We certainly don't know if burials were adopted by whatever species has existed here of if it's a trend of the last few thousands of years ;)
Also bear in mind, if any of these species would have existed they would have probably been pre glaciation time, or immediately after at the latest. Very little chance to discover much if remains had been hmmm say cremated.
Ruins? edifications? I don't know about those but well I don't hold all answers, still I don't pretend to jump on the badwagon of saying something doesn't exist just because I don't understand it, or because I don't know enough about it.
-
im never brave enough to say, just because i havent seen the evidence it doesnt exist
too much in this world is unexplained.
Take King Arthur... did he exist ? Jesus ??? did he ???
-
im never brave enough to say, just because i havent seen the evidence it doesnt exist
too much in this world is unexplained.
Take King Arthur... did he exist ? Jesus ??? did he ???
Of course Jesus existed! not one but many of them :ph34r:
Clickey and read (it's by no means a piss take btw)
Jesus (http://jesusneverexisted.com/surfeit.htm)
As for Arthur, I really don't know, to me at times it sounds like a collective figure, the embodiement of an idea adopted by several people rather than one individual. it just makes more sense to me when you read about habits of ancient britons where one man would become the King Stag and commit himself to protect the land at the cost of his own life.
I was thinking about the whole issue concerning ruins, and I remembered that whilst in Italy I visited a fortification called Rocca Calascio. It has a rather interesting story.
The people who populated the region originally were the Samnites but they found it there already built. The Etruscans didn't build it, and when the Romans found it they also stated that it was already built in the form of a beacon tower which they fortified and also used for that purpose. Eventually they extended the wall and turrets and a small settlement to keep the garrison provisioned, also if you explore the area there are small cave like holes (some say a network) where they used to store their provisions and people in case of a raid whilst the garrison defended the fortification.
Here you can see the place Rocca Calascio (http://www.regione.abruzzo.it/turismo/images/tci_arte_calascio.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v363/Hyllyn/EndEdron/HyllynStanza.jpg)
(check out for the extensions made to the wall and tower)
Also it's to be noted that the main building never held several rooms, it's got only and entrance, a grid which leads to a big deep hol where pressumably the wood for the beacon was stored, and then lifted onto the top level which would have been open and ready to take the load for the beacon. (there are other later beacon towers in along the old road from Pescara, to Alba Fuscens and to Rome but this one is the real enigma).
With time it changed but only little, most of its construction remains from its original form.
And what is amazing about it? It's out of context, that kind of fortification did not exist at the time and obviously not knowing who made it poses another interesting twist to the possible explanations.
Who knows ei? ;)
-
The trouble with the Arthur legend is that the Normans fiddled with it and distorted it out of all recognition and so that makes finding out if there is some basis in it extremely difficult.
Lessa
-
Well, lets face it Lessa, there are many many versions of such arent there? But I will say that I like the idea of his being a Roman officer with Sarmatians (sp?) being his knights.
But anyway, back to elves.
I find it interesting that just because one chooses to believe in elves as opposed to a single being who was supposed to create the world that one becomes open to derision. I think any belief is valid if the person who believes it can justify it in their own minds. (ok that was really waffly but I had trouble getting it out! :P )
I certainly like the multiverse theory and it could go a long way to explaining the unexplainable. Safe to say though, that personally I have always believed that Middle Earth and the inhabitants of it existed from the very first time I learned about them I felt that there was a bases in reality. Something I cannot really explain. :-\
-
I know what you mean B. It's an intuitive feeling rather than something based in fact. I felt the same way myself on first reading lotr. I think that there is so much visual and historical detail that you have a job believeing it is just fiction.
Lessa