The Age of the Ring (Lord of the Rings) Forum
Tolkien only Section => Books - LOTR & The Hobbit => Topic started by: EG on May 22, 2006, 11:50:30 PM
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Elrond chose to be of Elven kind and became a master of wisdom. To him therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle Earth: that when weary at last of the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the uttermost West; and this grace continued after the change of the world. But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle earth.
RoTK Appendix A
... and Elladan and Elrohir we know stayed in ME at least for a little while, dwelling in Rivendell..... so by making the choice not to sail with Elrond, they became mortal .....
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as far as I can remember they never made that choice. Just because teh ships went to the undying lands without them doesn't mean they had made the choice to be mortal. Most of the Eldar left but there were other elves who were in ME.
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I think to pass with him here means just to sail into the west in whatever time and not to remain. Indeed I suppose a lot of elves sailed into the west after Elrond's departure.
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you really think that the Valor would have allowed them endless time to decide ??? so that they could, at the very last minute opted to jump on the boat, just when it looked like their life force was fading ?
Surely, they would have had to make a decision before then...
and as the passage said, for THEM, not any elves, but Elrond's children..
But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle earth.
its quite clear .........
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Do you have any suggestions? I see now I have been wrong :[
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Im not sure, to be honest . In some ways it would be nice to think they met and married humans ,,,,
and I do wonder too... whether it meant that they could choose to pass with him, just not at the same time ???
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I don't read that passsage to mean that Elrond's sons HAD to leave ME with him to remain immortal - after all, ships sailed for the undying lands for at least 120 years after the start of the 4th Age (when Gimli and Legolas sailed), and maybe longer - we just don't know. The E&E brothers may have just decided to hang around a while longer in ME after dad took off to help mop up. They would've been the highest ranking elves left in ME, and that might have been an attraction, too (after all, they WERE part human!)
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but when did they make their choice ? Its quite clear they had to make one!
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I don't think there is a time limit on when the half elven have to decide only that if they choose to be mortal it is permanent. Until then they are counted as immortal
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if thats true, why then did Arwen have to choose ? Why couldnt she have remained as she was and left ME after Aragorn's death ? Why did she have to choose then ?
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I feel we again return to the undecided question of Arwen's departure. Here's the quote
[Aragorn:]"I speak no comfort to you, for there is no comfort for such pain within the circles of the world. The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never more than memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men."
"Nay, dear lord," she[Arwen] said, "that choice is long over. There is now no snip that would bear the hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence. But I say to you, King of the Númenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive."
Perhaps this deserves to be a new thread ???
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OK, I just read Wikipedia, and it says this:
'Since they are explicitly described as remaining in Rivendell for a time after their father's departure, some fans speculated that they had also chosen mortality. However, J. R. R. Tolkien himself noted that the twins were allowed to "delay" their choices.'
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yes, Letter 153 : "Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while."
but for how long ?
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Ah now there is the eternal question!! I have no idea for how long they remained in ME or whether they chose to be mortal or immortal
EG Arwen chose of her own free will there was no coercion.
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In my opinion, more interesting and important in this matter is the question why a choice for them was also appointed. Why only to the sons of Elrond and not to all other Elves?
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Because they were half elven.. the choice to be man or elf in destiny..
In the primary story of Lúthien and Beren, Luthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest herself of 'immonality' and become 'mortal' — but when Beren is slain by the Wolf-warden of the Gates of Hell, Lúthien obtains a brief respite in which they both return to Middle-earth 'alive' – though not mingling with other people : a kind of Orpheus-legend in reverse, but one of Pity not of Inexorability. Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited 'immortality': an exception either way. Eärendil is Túor's son & father of Elros (First King of Númenor) and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children – with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel – have to make their choices. Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Lúthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Lúthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she 'makes the choice of Lúthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.
Letter 153
Yes Lessa, she made the choice of her own free will ... but only because she HAD to make a choice .... What I dont understand is why she had to make it then.. because she married a mortal I guess :-\
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it wasn't just the sonds of elrond it was all half elven who had the choice to follow their elf ancestry or their human ancestry.
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this is very interesting indeed... well as stated before i think that yes she had to choose bacause she chose to wed a mortal kng, even tough he was of the line of numeron... if i remeber correctly, wehn aragon died, she passed away among the trees of lothlorien, which by that time was empty of elves, thus she died among the trees of that fiar land if i am not mistaken...
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So Arwen, Elrohir and Elladan were counted among half-elven? But then returning to the main question I'm inclined to think that Elrohir and Elladan did remain immortal, since it is said they remained only for a while.
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remain for a while, before they died tho ?
its so ambigious isnt it!
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I think if they remained and died Tolkien would have written something like 'remained in Middle-earth'.
But since he says their 'end is not told' it could be whatever way. Both opportunities are equal and probable
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i have to agree with you here... he usually does write a song about an event... failing to do so in this case makes both ways possible i guess
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Actually, they were completely human. Edain and Eldar are simply subspecies of the same species, together with hobbits and dwarves.
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they are Arwen's brother's, so if she was allowed to choose why on earth wouldn't they be
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Actually, they were completely human. Edain and Eldar are simply subspecies of the same species, together with hobbits and dwarves.
no they werent! they were half-elven,
see my earlier post quoting Tolkien's letter 153 :
Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children – with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel – have to make their choices
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My trusty handbook (the Complete Guide to Middle-earth by Robert Foster) says that because they did not go over Sea with their father that they seem to have chosen mortality..