The Age of the Ring (Lord of the Rings) Forum
Tolkien only Section => Books - LOTR & The Hobbit => Topic started by: EG on August 15, 2005, 02:45:34 PM
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I thought it would be fun if we had a weekly discussion topic. Which would also inspire us to come up with something new to discuss each week... coz we have a deadline! lol
Index of Discussions
- "In the appendix in section B, it said that Sam also sailed to Valinor. Do you reckon he saw Frodo alive one last time?" (http://www.ageofthering.com/forum/index.php?topic=37608.msg1110888#msg1110888)
- what was Sauron (through the Black Numenórean known as the Mouth of Sauron) attempting to accomplish through the parley with Gandalf at the Black Gate? Sauron must have had many unanswered questions: was Aragorn really wielding the Ring when Gandalf, who was much more powerful, was also present? What was the "huge elf-warrior" doing near Shelob's Lair? If the West really did have the Ring, why were they attacking with such a puny force that Sauron could probably defeat them anyway? (http://www.ageofthering.com/forum/index.php?topic=37608.msg1113407#msg1113407)
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The Eldar say that in the begetting, and still more in the bearing of children, greater share and strength of their being, in mind and in body, goes forth than in the making of mortal children. For these reasons it came to pass that the Eldar brought forth few children; and also that their time of generation was in their youth or earlier life, unless strange and hard fates befell them. But at whatever age they married, their children were born within a short space of years after their wedding
HoME
Why is it that the Eldar (the elves) had children only in the first few years of their marriage ??? Did they abstain from physical love once they were born ??? Did they remain married after the children were born Why did they only have a few children ??? (http://www.ageofthering.com/forum/index.php?topic=37608.msg1115229#msg1115229)
- Was the King of the Dead.... a "baddie" or a "goodie" (http://www.ageofthering.com/forum/index.php?topic=37608.msg1116489#msg1116489)
- What are the implications of Aragorn's statement to his companions after the loss of Gandalf: "We must do without hope"? To what extent will hope only hinder the Company in its mission? (http://www.ageofthering.com/forum/index.php?topic=37608.msg1136102#msg1136102)
- Were the Seven and Nine Rings originally intended for Dwarves and Men? (http://www.ageofthering.com/forum/index.php?topic=37608.msg1139644#msg1139644)
I say to you, King of the Numenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive...But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Then she said farewell to Eldarion, and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved; and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.
Two questions...
1. Arwen, it seems from this passage, regrets her choice not to leave with the rest of elfkind.... Do you think ???
2. Why could she not have been granted a pass into Valinor anyway ? There were others, who were not elfkind, who were granted passage to Valinor, as a special exception.. I wonder why Galadriel, or Elrond, of even the Vala, didnt just give her passage to Valinor anyway ??? :-\ (http://www.ageofthering.com/forum/index.php?topic=37608.msg1142224#msg1142224)
- Sauron knew of Isildur's heir all along ??? (http://www.ageofthering.com/forum/index.php?topic=37608.msg1142840#msg1142840)
- Ents and Elves dispute over title of "first-born". (http://www.ageofthering.com/forum/index.php?topic=37608.msg1157403#msg1157403)
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Good idea EG!!!
Hmmmm well if Sam had managed to stay alive until that point, there's no reason why frodo couldn't have....especially as he was living in Valinor, which you would have thought would make you live longer really.
So I guess it's just a matter of whether sam made it to Valinor really - because aren't mortals meant to be unable to get there (unless they have the grace of the valar etc) ?
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comes back to the old question tho doesnt it
Were they bodies in Valinor, or spirits ???
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It's difficult really, because I saw Valinor as a place....a distant land as such, especially given I saw maps etc. However, is Valinor actually a metaphor for heaven? If it is, then perhaps those that dwell there are spirits. However, I would disagree since Galadriel and other leading elves were born and bred in Valinor but were then expelled. Thus they could not be spirits and since elves live forever (unless they receive a heartbreaking valentines card) then surely Valinor is a place and not a heaven...thus not there are no spirits. I also assumed that Frodo, Bilbo and Sam all lived slightly longer but died in Valinor ??? It's difficult but that's my opinion
P.S. Sam did get to Valinor as he was a ring bearer...they were blessed as far as I can remember eeep
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1482: Death of Mistress Rose, wife of Master Samwise, on Mid-Year's Day. On September 22 Master Samwise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens, and passed over Sea, last of the Ring-bearers.
-- from Appendix B, The Return Of The King
So he was a ring bearer then....if he left in 1482, shire reckoning and frodo had left in 1421, thats nearly sixty years. Given frodos age at the end of the war of the ring, it is possible he was alive (well, sam was...would the long life given by the ring have affected frodo at all now that it was destroyed? If the ring had been destroyed and gollum had lived, would he too have died?)
To be honest, i always imagined that frodo would die quite soon after entering valinor, at peace.
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I thought Sam went! And Legolas and Gimli went as well, although Legolas was not one of the pure raced elves and Gimli was a dwarf they were given access. As far as I can remember, Legolas built a great ship in Osgiliath and him and Gimli sailed to Valinor...but Gimli was close to the end of his life. They were obviously given blessing by the Gods for their part in the defeat of Sauron....
True I think Frodo would probably be dead or dying when Sam arrived in Valinor, the magic of the place would not have kept him alive long.
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I've always thought of Valinor as a proper place, with proper people (as opposed to spirits etc).
But i also thought that you could only travel to Valinor with the grace of the valar....or some other such thing. And that's how frodo got to go, because arwen kinda swopped with him. But if that was right....how did Bilbo go? *confused*
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Because Frodo, Bilbo and Sam were all ring bearers :) Anyone who held the ring for any amount of time were allowed access to Valinor regardless.....even Gollum could have gone! Although I think the number of elves would have put him off ;)
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Does it actually say that anywhere in the books? (sorry, that sounds like i'm disagreeing - i just haven't read the books in quite a while and can't remember :P )
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Hehe it does somewhere I promise! I've read all the books and really remember it saying that all ring bearers were allowed access to Valinor.
And trusted friend Encyclopedia of Ardas says: "Because of their status as Ring-bearers, they were granted the passage of the Straight Road, and each eventually went to the Blessed Realm to live out their lives."
So yeah, anyone who was a ring bearer gets instant access...god just imagine Tom Bombadil in Valinor! My idea of hell... :P
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:o God was he classed as a ring-bearer?
I s'pose he did hold it for like....a second!!! I wouldn't have thought that he's want to go to Valinor anyway, I always thought of him as part and parcel of ME.
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As long as you touch the ring you still are a ring bearer tis odd! Yeah I don't think he would haev gone, you're right he does belong to Middle Earth...although what on earth is he?
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Well, if Gollum was right, once the Ring was destroyed it would no longer preserve and extend the lives of the Ring-bearers (he says something like, "We'll die into dusst!"). This is corroborated by the fact that Bilbo aged much faster after the Ring was destroyed and could barely stay awake during the journey from Rivendell to The Grey Havens.
My gut feeling is that the non-elves who made it to Valinor probably lived out a normal lifespan for their race. Frodo was what, 53 when he departed Middle Earth? So if you add 61 years he would've been 114, which isn't impossible for a hobbit, but not common (remember, eleventy-one was considered a very respectable age). So, there's an outside chance that Sam and Frodo were re-united in Valinor - but only for a brief time until they died.
As for Bombadil, he may well have been of Valinor. Could be a Maiar, like Olorin.
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What interests me about all this is the fact that I didnt even KNOW about the Sam going to Valinor bit.... why?
Because the book I had was an OLDER version and it didnt even HAVE that appendix part with that in it.... which suggests to me that this came later..... MUCH later. So much so, that I wondered if it was added by Christopher.... and.... me being me I really dont give much credit to him as I think had he NOT been JRR's son he would have just been a nobody! CERTAINLY not a writer at least... I think he is CRAP at it!
hehe THAT should set the cat amongst the pigeons!
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Have to agree that Christopher is...well yes ::) But the appendixes where J.R.R. Tolkien, plus several of his other books such as 'The Silmarillion ' and 'Unfinished Tales' Gives us a wider understanding of Valinor pre the expulsion of some of the elves and ME etc...
But I still think Sam and Frodo would have met, briefly perhaps but met none the less.
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Yes I know.... the writing was JRR's but it was COMPILED by Christopher.
I dont think they met.... I dont think Sam went to Valinor at all. Its just my opinion. :P
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Haha...oh well, they all die in the end :P Lets be cheerful about that fact....Christopher is...well anyway I have to be nice on such a family site :laugh:
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My gut feeling is that the non-elves who made it to Valinor probably lived out a normal lifespan for their race.
I still can't help thinking that Valinor would extend their lives. I mean, it's a place of 'magic' - the livespans of the men of numenor was extended simply by the presence of elves, so how much more potent would this be if the hobbits lived with the valar, maiar and elves? Also, it's a place of rest and wisdom. I can't see the hobbits dying from being overstrained, or for lack of medical knowledge.
Christopher tolkein - hmmmm....i can stand him. If he's annoying me I can always ignore his notes, and I haven't got any of his own books.
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I personally think that those who are non-elves do have their lives expanded when in Valinor, due to the magical powers which dwell there. However, they would naturally die one way or another and be laid to rest in that land.
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:o God was he classed as a ring-bearer?
I s'pose he did hold it for like....a second!!! I wouldn't have thought that he's want to go to Valinor anyway, I always thought of him as part and parcel of ME.
to be fair to him, even though it was only for a short while he had totally accepted the task of ring bearer whilst believing frodo was dead. Who knows, perhaps he would have succeeded where frodo couldnt, more likely because he hadnt had the ring for as long, but the rings illusions of power did not fool him.
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Fairy Princess was referring to Bombadil holding the ring for about a second, not Sam. Sam's stint as a ring-bearer definitely counts, because he knew the dangers but accepted the burden, however scary the choice was. Sam's time holding the ring was only a few hours, but it was essential to the mission.
P.S. My copy of LOTR was printed in 1968, and it has all the appendices. How old is the one without appendices?
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well now I've loved the books but I'm in no way an expert...everyone on here knows more than I do...but, just a thought...surely Valinor would have extended Frodo's life...or what was the point in him going in the first place? He loved the Shire so much, so if Valinor didn't hold any special healing powers, why didn't he just stay in the Shire?
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Thats a good point Jacky. I reckon going to Valinor was definately to help him with some sort of cure for his ills. I always assumed that he wouldnt die if he went there, as wouldnt anyone who went there (does that make sense? cant be bothered changing it!) I suppose I always saw Valinor as the equivalent to Heaven really... I didnt think anyone ever died who went there.
Sadly Athelas I no longer have that copy, it eventually disintegrated so I am sorry, I cannot say what the date of is was.
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Tolkien in his letters said this about the passage of the people of ME to Valinor
But the promise made to the Eldar (the High Elves – not to other varieties, they had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-earth to paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prime Dark Lord had still to be fulfilled: that they should always be able to leave Middle-earth, if they wished, and pass over Sea to the True West, by the Straight Road, and so come to Eressëa – but so pass out of time and history, never to return. The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen.
But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.
I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' – of free will, and leave the world. (In this setting the return of Arthur would be quite impossible, a vain imagining.)
Letter 154
So IF the hobbits died there... surely the elves would have eventually died too
after all they werent immortal as such, just had "longer lives than we could imagine" and "seemed" immortal :-\
would their spirits have then entered another world ???
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The elves are tied to the fate of the world and so can't die til the world does. It's mentioned somewhere in the sil but can remember where just now.
Lessa
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the world of Middle Earth ??? or Valinor ???
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To turn the original question on its head - would Sam have gone to Valinor if he didn't think he would at least have a chance of seeing Frodo? Because what reason would he have for going there otherwise?
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the world of Middle Earth ??? or Valinor ???
All of it I would guess (it's called ea isn't it? ??? )
Do you reckon that the spirits of the elves would then go to wherever the spirits of men go then?
And as for sam....well he was keen on the elves at the beginning of the books. But I think that that was one of the discoveries he made on the quest....that home and loved ones are more important that the glamour that the elves may supply.
So, despite his liking for elves, I doubt that he would go to Valinor if he didn't think that he would see Frodo there.
.....unless he thought that he might die in the attempt to get to Valinor. If he knew that he was dying, perhaps he thought that the best way to go would be to go while trying to find his former master (OK that made more sense in my head... )
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Well, since Arda was a place of healing, and Sam was grieving his wife, and he probably thought he could get in (adumbrated as he was- what a great word!), maybe he went for more than one reason.
Don't elves go to Mandros when they die? And no one knows what happens to the spirits/souls of the Men of ME. Maybe they just cease to exist.
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the world of Middle Earth ??? or Valinor ???
Both
Lessa
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New Discussion
what was Sauron (through the Black Numenórean known as the Mouth of Sauron) attempting to accomplish through the parley with Gandalf at the Black Gate?
Sauron must have had many unanswered questions: was Aragorn really wielding the Ring when Gandalf, who was much more powerful, was also present? What was the "huge elf-warrior" doing near Shelob's Lair? If the West really did have the Ring, why were they attacking with such a puny force that Sauron could probably defeat them anyway?
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I think he was trying to gain some of those answers though. He was testing them. Showing the Mithril shirt and such was to see if he was connected to them and he certainly found out the answer to THAT one.
Secondly, I think he was trying to demoralise them too. By showing them the shirt was to dash all their hopes, even though he hadnt guessed what they were up to. In fact, it must have been so confusing for him .... he must have been wondering what on earth they had sent someone into Mordor for, as no way did he know the Ring was involved.
I wonder if he thought they were trying to assassinate him? :-\
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I think he wanted some answers as well. Like why was a hobbit even in Mordor? Let alone just accompanied by a 'huge elf-warrior'. I think he was also there to demoralise the army if not it's leaders and so hopefully make them easier prey for his army.
He must have had a shock when Aragorn turned out to be the real heir of the man who killed his body, if not his essence, and not some imposter as he no doubt believed.
If he had even the remotest thought that the ring was in Mordor he would have torn the place apart looking for it and left the allies to themselves while he looked.
I wonder if he thought they were trying to assassinate him?
That's certainly possible B
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Or to spy on movements in mordor?
But then again, the alliance wouldn't have much reason to spy - i mean, mordor's movements weren't exactly rocket science. The only things the alliance wouldn't know about would be things like the surprise attack on osgilaith. ....and by the time any spies had found out about these, then relayed this information to gondor, it would be pretty useless.
But i suspect that's what sauron must have thought anyway - doesn't he make some reference to spying or spies through the Mouth of Sauron at the gates?
I also think that sauron was trying to gain answers at the gate rather than demoralise them. He was always going to defeat the army - all that would have changed by the army being demoralised would be the amount of orcs that it took to kill them. And sauron's already shown he doesn't give a toss how many orcs die.
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but dont you think its also strange he pulled out the WHOLE of his army to greet Aragorn, when Aragorn had such a small fighting force in comparision, to attack ???
He could have just sent a few troops!
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he really feared Aragorn especially as he had with him the sword that killed his body. He knew Aragorn had the strength and will to face him and possibly do him irreprable damage.
Lessa
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Also, Aragorn had challenged him in the Palantir hadnt he? He had actually managed to wrest it from Sauron's will as far as I can remember. I think Sauron had every reason to fear him and would want to crush him and his armies as quickly as possible.
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yes they had had quite a chat through the palantir and Aragorn came away the winner
Lessa
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yeah! but he hardly needed ALL his troops did he!
Maybe he thought that Aragorn might also have the Ring with him, or someone there with him had it :-\
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Yeh but sauron was totally at a loss for why on earth Aragorn + co would pull this kinda stunt.
Attacking the whole of mordor with a couple of thousand men?! Sauron must have thought (and would have been right) that there was something more to it than there seemed. So seeing as he had troops to kill (literally) he might as well have sent a force that size to defeat them.
If sauron's suspicions were right, and Aragorn had the ring, he wouldn't want it slipping through his fingers again.
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That makes a lot of sense K8. I just wonder why he never considered it was a diversion and a stalling poly on the part of Aragorn.
Lessa
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exactly! WHY empty Mordor of troops for the pitiful army that Aragorn had left ???
Why not just send say, half of them ???
Unless... they thought theyd deal with them and move onto the next settlement :-\
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yes there is that. Sauron must have thought if he wiped those led by Aragorn out then there would be next to no oppostion when he moved on.
Lessa
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New Discussion
the Eldar say that in the begetting, and still more in the bearing of children, greater share and strength of their being, in mind and in body, goes forth than in the making of mortal children. For these reasons it came to pass that the Eldar brought forth few children; and also that their time of generation was in their youth or earlier life, unless strange and hard fates befell them. But at whatever age they married, their children were born within a short space of years after their wedding
HoME
Why is it that the Eldar (the elves) had children only in the first few years of their marriage ??? Did they abstain from physical love once they were born ??? Did they remain married after the children were born ??? Why did they only have a few children ???
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Perhaps this is because they put so much of themselves into the making of their offspring that they can only do this few times and so can't physically reproduce later. I do believe they still have relations with thier partners though.
Lessa
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Regarding Sauron's allocation of troops at the Black Gate: remember, these weren't ALL of his troops. Orcs were attacking Lorien and the city of Dale around the same time. This was, after all, a World War, not just Mordor against Gondor.
And yes, Sauron knew the size of the army at the Black Gate, but he may have been afraid that Aragorn might be wielding the Ring, which would make the army mightier than its numbers alone would predict.
Also, the Mouth of Sauron tried to bargain Gandalf & Company into withdrawing by showing the effects of Frodo and Sam. Maybe Sauron would have preferred domination over most of Middle Earth without a fight at all!
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Hmmmm i think that i agree with lessa.
If elves could only have a few children (due to the effort, strength etc that has to go into them) they might as well have them early rather than late.
That's an interesting question actually - does the health of elves deteriorate? If it does, this may be why they have children young, as this is when they are most able to bear them.
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It also seems that they had children young and early in their marriage, so that they could use their continued wisdom and guidance to help their children through their future lives, as they developed their own skills.
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Yeah, but what makes you think that elves could only have a few children though?
Perhaps elven women go into menopause early in their lives so then they are FREEEE to do with their time as they want.
I mean imagine it.... a baby making machine for years and years and years and years! eeep NO!
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What a horrible though B!! :o It's bad enough for the 30+ years we have to endure it as it is. I'd hate to think it went on for 1000s of years *shudder*
Lessa
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hmmm this discussion expands more on the idea, that they ceased sexual relations, showing that the elves once "joined in body" are married... have a period of the "child years" and then move onto fulfill other callings...
For with regard to generation the power and the will are not among the Eldar distinguishable. Doubtless they would retain for many ages the power of generation, if the will and desire were not satisfied; but with the exercise of the power the desire soon ceases, and the mind turns to other things." (op. cit.: 212-3) Commonly authors interpret this to mean that elves lose interest in sex. However, if one reads carefully, one sees that this is not necessarily true - Tolkien merely states that since the production of children is a conscious decision, if elves lose the desire for such production, they will cease to have them after a certain period of time. How different is this from many human couples today? The confusion surrounding the true intent of this passage can be removed when one reads Christopher Tolkien's note on this section, which quotes version A as stating "For, whether the Eldar retain their power of generation... at all times they lose the desire and will with the exercise of that power." (op. cit.: 229) Note it is the interest and will to exercise "that power" [of generation] which wanes, not the desire for one partner for the other.
The main narrative continues to say that "The union of love is indeed to them great delight and joy, and the 'days of the children', as they call it, remain in their memory as the most merry in life; but they have many other powers of body and of mind which their nature urges them to fulfill." (op. cit.: 213) The "union of love" is most naturally identified as "sex," but the "other powers" mentioned refer to replacing not this union, but the power of generation - the production of children. Hence, while it is possible that some elf couples do lose interest in sex after their children bearing and rearing years are over (as happens in some human couples today), it is not true that canon states that elves necessarily stop having sex!
It has been argued that elves possibly only have sex to procreate. This is illogical, and indeed not supported by canon. As was stated previously it is the union of the body which marks the beginning of a marriage. If it were true that sex must equal conception then the firstborn of every elf couple would necessarily be born on their first anniversary. However, Tolkien states that children are rather "born within a short span of years after their wedding," then adds that the span is "short as the Eldar reckoned time. In mortal count there was often a long interval between the wedding and the first child-birth, and even longer between child and child."
http://www.ithilas.com/morgoth.html
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I think we need a new discussion
Was the King of the Dead.... a "baddie" or a "goodie" ???
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I suppose you could call him both... a 'baddie' for breaking his promises, in the first place, but also a 'goodie' for helping the Fellowship in their time of need... though he did only really do it for his own sake, so he could finally lay at rest. It's quite a difficult question to answer really!
So I would call him a 'badodie', a mixture of bad and good!
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I think he would be a bit more appealing to audiences at large if he spent a bit more time in the make-up department.
But ahhh i feel sorry for him, and all of the dead to be fair. I mean, I think that they probably had good intentions but were cowardly. I mean, if Sauron trying his best to kill me, I think my immediate reaction would be to run and hide. So does cowardliness make you a baddie?
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Well, I reckon he was just a coward really. Like others say, I tend to feel sorry for him being condemned to not rest for all eternity.
I suppose it all came out right in the end. After all, he helped Aragorn and co get the ships in order to arrive on time at the Pelennor fields. Without him, they would never have made it! :8o
I dont think he was a baddie really..... just dead! :P
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but he was a murderer and a traitor! The King of the Men of the White Mountains, who once served Sauron.
He and his men betrayed Isildur by refusing, after promising, to fight against Sauron's armies. Was this cowardice ? or perhaps that they had not quite deserted their alleigance to Sauron ???
They killed many in their paths after they took over haunting the White Mountains.... thats not good! They could have given free pass to those who didnt support Sauron :-\
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and he only helped Aragorn because he was bound by the curse...if he could have killed him he would! He helped Aragorn for selfish reasons, not to redeem himself, but to release himself from that curse! I would say he was a baddie :(
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Ahhhh but how can you resist those adorable hollowed-out eyes? ::) They're just crying out to be loved!!!!
Anyway, something constructive....OK maybe serving sauron wasn't the best of ideas. I suppose it's a question of whether he did it because he was scared (which, while not exactly being admirable, is kinda excusable) or whether he did it because he craved power and actually wanted to a chunk of Sauron's glory.
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he was rather charismatic...actually, joking apart, I did rather think that actor did a cracking job playing that character...what was his name...anybody know?
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Paul Norell
(http://www.londonfilmandcomiccon.com/imagegallery/lfcc2images/paulnorell1.jpg)(http://www.legends-online.com/acatalog/paul_norell.jpg)
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I prefer him in makeup...but then I'm not normal :[
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Well, I will go along with that! ;) :P
So what you are saying is that he wouldnt have helped given the choice? I suppose that could be right, but surely he would have wanted release from his eternal damnation? I would have thought he would have jumped at the chance!
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he might have got used to his life in the "caves" I mean, now theyre "dead" properly... he's got no army to command :-\
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Well yeah, but surely that is better than being stuck in some netherworld for eternity even if you are in command. The premis has to be, doesnt it, that he would have done anything to escape such a terrible fate?
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he did looked pretty relieved when Aragorn released him after the battle though :-\
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yes there was an air of great relief and comtentment about him wasn't there?
Lessa
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Am I right, that in the book the King of the Dead doesnt actually attack them does he? I know that in the films he is shown as being aggressive and attacks them.
I thought that in the book although the dead 'would not suffer the living to pass' there was no personal intention. They just kept the pass and anyone who attempted to pass through there would die.
I know that they were being punished for not aiding Elendil in the past so, is it appropriate for them to be punished for all time for one mistake (huge though it was! ::))
Personally, I dont think the King of the Dead was evil really. He was just malicious and bitter because of his situation.
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well? is that right? (I cannot be bothered to look it up in the books). ::)
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No, I dont believe he does attack them in the books. They simply walk through, and pass out the otherside, with the great host behind them. It seems the Dead recognise Aragorn and Anduril!
NEW QUESTION!!!
What are the implications of Aragorn's statement to his companions after the loss of Gandalf: "We must do without hope"? To what extent will hope only hinder the Company in its mission?
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I think this question is two fold
1. Does Aragorn see Gandalf as their only hope ?
2. Why is hope not good for the Fellowship ?
I think the problem for the Fellowship at this stage, was that they all forgot about their own talents and instincts and relied instead upon the wisdom and greater leadership skills of Gandalf. Perhaps we get back to the question, did Gandalf fall deliberately ? In that, by leaving the Fellowship he forced, at least, Aragorn to realise his greater leadership skills! So maybe, hope was with them. After all Estel, the name given to Aragorn by his mother translates as hope!
2. Was hope not good for the Fellowship ? Maybe not. Maybe hope meant they trusted in luck more than skill and judgement ? That they thought by hoping everything would work out, it would. Naiivity in its extreme. That sort of hope does not help anyone, because it clouds the judgement, and belief in your own skills,. But it also, means that those involved would think the task easier than it actually could be. In fact, it was a very dangerous, life threatening task.
But, without hope... hope that it might work out.. would they have bothered to continue on ??? hmmmm........
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It could have been that Gandalf knew that Aragorn would be more obligated to the Fellowship if he wasnt around. It became Aragorn's duty to become the leader. Now then, also I always thought that his referral to 'hope' was in reference to himself and his name, as some sort of hint that they shouldnt rely on him. Which was in keeping with his character (in the film anyway) as he really didnt want the responsibility did he? Gandalf really pushed him into it, by disappearing off the scene and leaving him to it!
As to the second part of the question well hoping is not enough is it? It is important to be in control of what happens and not just hope for the best. I dont really think that Frodo and Sam had much hope towards the end. I think they were just soldiering on in the way that Hobbits do and focussed on getting the job done! Dont know whether they believed they could do it though. They just had no choice.
Blimey, its such an allegory for life isnt it? It is the only way to be in life, otherwise you lose your way and can get totally lost!! :o
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perhaps Gandalf pushing Aragorn into it, was also part of Aragorn's destiny, hence as I suggested, we get back to whether Gandalf fell deliberatley :-\
Anyway... since this question isnt getting very far, probably time for a new one!
Were the Seven and Nine Rings originally intended for Dwarves and Men?
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Those rings were made with help of Annatar, who later was discovered to be Sauron, and it's his idea to make all the rings, so I think he intended to take the seven and the nine after making his own Ring of Power to enslave the bearers of those rings.
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yes he did
but did he intend them for the dwarves and Men ? do you think ?
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Difficult question... ??? Probably he did. If not, then for whom the rings were intended? On the other hand the rings were made by the elves so possibly they intended to take them. Judging by the verse opening TLotR, the rings were intended for dwarves and men.
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perhaps it was a way of the eldar keeping an watchful eye on their allies the edain.
Lessa
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So, after some research I came to the conclusion that the rings were both intended & not intended for Dwarves and Men. After making the one ring Sauron attacked Eregion and captured 16 rings. The 3 elven rings were sent away by that time from Region. After it Sauron gave 9 rings to men and seven to dwarves to enslave them.
The elves and Sauron had different purposes in making the rings. The elves, as I understand it, wanted to use them to make Middle Earth as fair as the Undying Lands. And Sauron himself gave to them idea of that. But secretly, he planned to make the one ring from the beginning and then have a dominion of all life. Thus the elves didn’t intended to give the rings to other races, but Sauron did.
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I believe that since Sauron created those rings with the elves.. he fully intended for the elves to have them, after all they were the greatest threat at the time to his dominance of ME. It was their realisation of his intentions that made them make The Three in secret so that he would not be able to control them
So, he was left with The Nine and The Seven, and had to seek instead to control other races of Middle Earth, hence their gifts to dwarves and Men.
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Very convincible. But the three rings weren’t made to withstand Sauron’s power. In fact if the Elves had put them on Sauron would’ve been able to control them. But yes, I agree now that the rings originally were intended for the elves. :)
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no they werent made to withstand his power, but they were made so that they could have rings of power free of his influence.
Interesting tho, that the One Ring did still have some power over them, in that, it enabled its wearer to know who and where the ringbearers of the three were :-\
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Hm.. As far as I know the one had influence over the three. It is not only knowledge of where the wearers of the three were that made the elves to put off their rings.
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i dont beleive he did have an influence over them, but knowing where they were he would seek to control their owners as a result :-\
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And where is it told that the ruling ring gave the opportunity to know where were the wearers of the three? ???
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"As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him. ... Then ... they took off their Rings." [Silm: Rings (288)]
so you would be able to assume that Sauron was also able to identify the whereabouts of the Three :-\
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Thanks. But I still stand by that the one had some power over the three. After all that quote doesn't exclude it. My argument: if the three were independent of the one why did they lose their power after destroying of the one?
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hmmm.... they were under "its power" so yes you are right in that sense, because they existed only as long as it did. But the power of the Three was to keep the areas it was used as a beautiful peaceful region. To arrest the change in Middle Earth. The One Ring did not have the power to change the power of the Three.
So in one sense it had power over them, in that, if it continued not to exist, then neither would they. But it did not really influence their power.
well thats how I translate it anyway :)
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You mean Sauron couldn't control the elves who weared the Three? Well, that's debatable; it seems to me it's impossible to prove that :-\
As for the discussion I agree that the rings of Men and Dwarves weren't originally intended for them, unless the elves wanted to make a gift to men and dwarves, just like they gave them the Seeing Stones.
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i really dont think Sauron could. For one, the bearers of the three removed their rings, once they realised it made them visible
I do beleive that the One Ring may have affected the Power of the Three and perhaps destroyed what the Three had built, but the bearers were more astute than to allow themselves to be put in a position of influence by Sauron
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Were the seven & nine two specific sets of rings or just 16 rings that happened to get parcelled up that way?
eg "I'll give one to each Dwarf Lord, now how many does that leave? 9, OK I need 9 human victims"
While LOTR does seem to make the division fairly specific I'm sure I remember reading stuff that pointed to the making being much vaguer than that.
Also Gandalf had to go & research the various rings; if it had been that cut & dried all he'd needed to do would be ask Elrond who could have told him straight away (I assume).
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We aren't told of the making of those rings, so I imagine they weren't different.
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youre right CC
they did just make 16.. which when Sauron divided them up in temper at the Elves forging the Three in secret were delved out that way
there is also a big debate as to whether the one that was given to Durin, was one that was forged with the aid of Sauron, or one that was also forged in secret... since, possibly, it is another one that Sauron didnt retrieve or control :-\
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Slight deviation here.. but talking about The Three... Do you suppose that Cirdan used Narya to create Mithlond, The Grey Havens.
Both Galadriel and Elrond used their Rings to create the Havens of Imladris and Lorien, making them both "magical" places of beauty, delaying the onset of time.... and so perhaps Cirdan used Narya for the same purpose.
If that is the case then, when he passed Narya onto Gandalf, was the integrity of Mithlond waned at all ? i.e the "haven" became not such a haven ???
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And what is exactly the onset of time? I mean what changes could that bring to Rivendell and Lorien? I think even without the ring Mithlond remained place of beauty because of the calaquendi living there.
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I say to you, King of the Numenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive...But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Then she said farewell to Eldarion, and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved; and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.
Two questions...
1. Arwen, it seems from this passage, regrets her choice not to leave with the rest of elfkind.... Do you think ???
2. Why could she not have been granted a pass into Valinor anyway ? There were others, who were not elfkind, who were granted passage to Valinor, as a special exception.. I wonder why Galadriel, or Elrond, of even the Vala, didnt just give her passage to Valinor anyway ??? :-\
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1. I think that she regretted that Aragorn had abandoned the world and thus her life was filled with grief and sorrow.
2. This matter is always nagging at me. If Aragorn had offered her to sail to Valinor before he died then it was possible to do that, but I don't understand why she said that there was no ship that could bear her to the undying Lands. Perhaps wedding a mortal automatically forbids an elf to pass to Valinor. It seems to be impossible or Elrond would have stayed in ME and waited for Arwen. ???
By the way, where did they go to Valinor or to Eressea?
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she hadn't realised just what it meant to live a finite life. It's one thing to renounce your immortality but another to actually understand it in your heart. She also wanted Aragorn to stay with her for longer than he was able to
It wasn't that she married a mortal but that the minute Arwen renounced her immortality there was no ship to take her into Valinor. Only mortals with special dispensation from the Valar were able to sail to the Undying lands. Those that were granted a pass so to speak had done exception things whereas Arwen had not.
Lessa
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But why then Aragorn told her to sail away? Did he not know that that was impossible?
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I think the problem there, Taurendil, lies in using the film as reference - it works well within the context of the film but I don't recall any such quote from the book. In fact they had been pladged to marry for far longer.
Actually, at what point was THE choice made, when did she become "fully human"? I'd guess at her marriage if there are no other quotes to support another point of view.
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There's the reference:
Aragorn: ' "I speak no comfort to you, for there is no comfort for such pain within the circles of the world. The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never more than memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men."
Arwen "Nay, dear lord," she said, "that choice is long over. There is now no snip that would bear the hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence. But I say to you, King of the Númenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." (Tale of Aragorn and Arwen)
So Aragorn accepts the possibility for her to sail away.
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Nicely found.
S0 *searches memory* that's largely quoted by Elrond in the film? - while she does still have a choice.
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I guess she refused the gift of immortality just like Aragorn refused gift of Men. I agree with Lessa that she wasn't allowed to Valinor(or Eressea). I suppose that Aragorn just did not realise this. As for the granted passage, I'm inclined to think that even the Wise couldn't make the Valar accept it. It's the only explanation I can make out...
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The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never more than memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men."
This quote here though does imply she is being punished. I mean, it seems very harsh treatment for her to be punished so virulently for wanting to be with Aragorn. What on earth was her crime that she should be treated so harshly?
It all seems a bit harsh to me.
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Perhaps it means that she should have regretted of their parting, not of forsaking immortality. ???
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its not repenting for being in love with Aragorn tho is it..
I suspect its more that she should repent for rejecting her elven heritage and everything taht goes with that.. to chose to be a mere mortal and lose all she had as an elf, which is not easily come by
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I think if the Valar pardoned the Exiled Noldor they could have granted her the passage, but I don't think forsaking immortality can be amended by repenting. It's just the rule not to admit mortal to the Undying Lands unless the Valar permit it.
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its not repenting for being in love with Aragorn tho is it..
I suspect its more that she should repent for rejecting her elven heritage and everything taht goes with that.. to chose to be a mere mortal and lose all she had as an elf, which is not easily come by
I know.
It just seems that the elves were really hard on her for rejecting the elven heritage. Says something about them I think. ::)
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I don't think the elves rejected her for decideing to cast aside her immortality. I think it was more that Elrond understood, after watching his brother go through the same thing, the despair Arwen would finally come to when her loved one died before her eyes. He also know that though she would eventually die she would not be ready to do so in a mere 122 years.
Lessa
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Frodo turned and looked at him thoughtfully, wondering about Gandalf's second postscript. 'Why didn't you tell me that you were Gandalf's friend at once?' he asked. 'It would have saved time.'
'Would it? Would any of you have believed me till now?' said Strider. 'I knew nothing of this letter. For all I knew I had to persuade you to trust me without proofs, if I was to help you. In any case, I did not intend to tell you all about myself at once. I had to study _you_ first, and make sure of you. The Enemy has set traps for me before now. As soon as I had made up my mind, I was ready to tell you whatever you asked. But I must admit,' he added with a queer laugh, 'that I hoped you would take to me for my own sake. A hunted man sometimes wearies of distrust and longs for friendship. But there, I believe my looks are against me.'
FOTR Chap 10
This scene takes part after Frodo has read Gandalfs letter, handed to him by Butterburr, in Bree.
Interesting thought that... The Enemy has set traps for me before now. could mean that perhaps Sauron knew of Aragorn, the heir to Isildur, long before he revealed himself in the Palantir to him ???
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Perhaps, the Enemy didn't knew that Strider was the heir of Isildur, but knew him as a captain in the service of Denethor. Thus Aragorn might have done great harm to Sauron before the War of the Ring.
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you think Aragorn was in Denethor's service? I never thought that... The Rangers then, always seemed to be in a league of their own.. tho I couldnt say who their leader was ... perhaps Imrahil ???
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It's said somewhere that Aragorn (alone) was in service of Gondor and Rohan some time before the War. That isn't associated with the Rangers. And during his service he concealed his true name.
'Then Aragorn took leave lovingly of Elrond; and the next day he said farewell to his mother, and to the house of Elrond, and to Arwen, and he went out into the wild. For nearly thirty years he laboured in the cause against Sauron; and he became a friend of Gandalf the Wise, from whom he gained much wisdom. With him he made many perilous journeys, but as the years wore on he went more often alone. His ways were hard and long, and he became somewhat grim to look upon, unless he chanced to smile; and yet he seemed to Men worthy of honour, as a king that is in exile, when he did not hide his true shape. For he went in many guises, and won renown under many names. He rode in the host of the Rohirrim, and fought for the Lord of Gondor by land and by sea; and then in the hour of victory he passed out of the knowledge of Men of the West, and went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men, both evil and good, and uncovering the plots and devices of the servants of Sauron.
From the tale of Aragorn and Arwen.
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yes I can see what you mean, but it doesnt say he was in their service, just that he fought for them, the Rohirrim and Gondor.
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I don't think that Sauron knew of Aragorn as being Isildur heir...Perhaps he knew that Aragon had been raised by Elrond and such? A human being raised by elves surely has some advantages.. Maybe Aragorn was just a pesky fly that Sauron wanted to swat...
Or perhaps it was the company that Aragorn kept, that Sauron wanted to get to? Maybe the "traps" he refers to are nothing more than him being used as a weapon to get to the elves.
I really don't think Sauron knew - Doesn't Gandalf say somewhere that they still have one weapon against the enemy that he doesnt know about - Isildurs heir? I don't know, my quoting may be completely wrong...I havent read the books all the way through since I was 7...heh. That was 10 years ago.
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yes I can see what you mean, but it doesnt say he was in their service, just that he fought for them, the Rohirrim and Gondor.
Maybe you are right, however I think that doesn't change the thing. As it's told he ' laboured in the cause against Sauron' and presumably was successful , so I believe that's the reason why Sauron hunted him
I wonder what traps could Sauron set against him in Eriador, since it was protected ???
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Aragorn was in the service of Ecthelion II when Denethor was a young man. He was using the name Thorngil between the years III 2957 and III 2980. During this period he also served Thengel and as I remember Theoden remembers Aragorn from that time.
Denethor was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore. Indeed he was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to the strnager in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father. At the time many thought that Thorongil had departed before his rival became his master; though indeed Thorongil had himself never vied with Denethor, nor held himself higher than the servant of his father. And in one matter only were thier counsels to the Steward at variance: Thorongil often warned Echthleion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf; and after the days of Ecthelion there was less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Tirith. Therefore later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he abd Mithrandir designed to supplant him.
Lessa
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I wonder if Aragorn merely meant enemies plural. I know that he refers "the Enemy" but it might be in the same way as someone could say "The Dwarf likes mithril" or "The Hobbit can eat an entire field of mushrooms in one go" - a generalisation of all his enemies rather than meaning Sauron?
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perhaps it does mean Sauron and all his minions but I don't think it means other enemies he might have.
Lessa
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Anyone reading the LotR now? Maybe some idea of a new subject?
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What if.............. Ents and Elves dispute over title of "first-born". ???
Do you think that would have changed the dynamics of Middle Earth, in that the Ents may have been more responsible for the fate of the people of Middle Earth, and deciding how to deal with the One Ring ???
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The Ents aren't children of Eru. And such title cannot be applied to them. Originally they were created by the Vala Kementari to look after the nature and not the fates of Middle-earth.
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I know... but what if ...
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Ok. What could they do? They couldn't have helped the nine walkers to reach Mordor, since that mission was a secret one. What they could is to help in the battles at the Fords of Isen for instance or in other battles, what actually they did.
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hmm you think the mission would have been secret to them ? what if instead of heading to the Firstborn in Imladris they headed for the Firstborn in Fangorn, to seek shelter and advice ?
I wonder if the ents would hvae actually advised sending the Ring to Mordor, or would have tried to protect it elsewhere ?
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No, I meant they hoped to reach Mordor in secret without noticing of Sauron and his spies and so the Ents could not accompany them.
What they would adwise I think is to hide it. But it's a guesswork. ;)